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Author Topic: Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR  (Read 1153 times)

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Offline s2srea

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Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2011, 10:05:35 AM »
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  • Wow- believe it or not I listen to NPR regularly, but only to get coverage. "We have a whole wave of priests who call themselves John Paul II priests. We have a whole wave of Catholics converts who call them John Paul II Catholics..."

    HAHAHAHAHA!

    One guy (priest?) said, "saints can not be 'un-sainted'" Is this true?


    Offline Phyllo

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    Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
    « Reply #2 on: May 01, 2011, 03:17:25 PM »
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  • Just because a fallible man (pope) says another fallible man is a saint does that make him so?  If anyone should be a saint my money is on Mother Theresa.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
    « Reply #3 on: May 01, 2011, 03:19:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Phyllo
    Just because a fallible man (pope) says another fallible man is a saint does that make him so?  If anyone should be a saint my money is on Mother Theresa.


    It is considered a theological certainty that canonizations are infallible.  

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
    « Reply #4 on: May 01, 2011, 03:23:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Phyllo
    Just because a fallible man (pope) says another fallible man is a saint does that make him so?  If anyone should be a saint my money is on Mother Theresa.


    It is considered a theological certainty that canonizations are infallible.  


    There may be a question though, in those canonizations since JPII changed the Traditional process of Canonization, removing safeguards.


    Offline lewis

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    Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
    « Reply #5 on: May 01, 2011, 03:26:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Phyllo
    Just because a fallible man (pope) says another fallible man is a saint does that make him so?  If anyone should be a saint my money is on Mother Theresa.


    It is considered a theological certainty that canonizations are infallible.  


    Yes, from a lawful Holy Father.

    Offline Phyllo

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    Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
    « Reply #6 on: May 01, 2011, 04:25:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Phyllo
    Just because a fallible man (pope) says another fallible man is a saint does that make him so?  If anyone should be a saint my money is on Mother Theresa.


    It is considered a theological certainty that canonizations are infallible.  


    I have a problem with Popes making saints.  Theological certainty?  Infallible?  I thought that only teaching on faith and morals are infallible.  You can't prove that some one is a saint.  I don't mean to be argumentative, it is just what I believe.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
    « Reply #7 on: May 01, 2011, 04:28:56 PM »
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  • http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

    Papal infallibility and canonization

    Is the pope infallible in issuing a decree of canonization? Most theologians answer in the affirmative. It is the opinion of St. Antoninus, Melchior Cano, Suarez, Bellarmine, Bañez, Vasquez, and, among the canonists, of Gonzales Tellez, Fagnanus, Schmalzgrüber, Barbosa, Reiffenstül, Covarruvias (Variar. resol., I, x, no 13), Albitius (De Inconstantiâ in fide, xi, no 205), Petra (Comm. in Const. Apost., I, in notes to Const. I, Alex., III, no 17 sqq.), Joannes a S. Thomâ (on II-II, Q. I, disp. 9, a. 2), Silvester (Summa, s.v. Canonizatio), Del Bene (De Officio Inquisit. II, dub. 253), and many others. In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet. This infallibility, however according to the holy doctor, is only a point of pious belief. Theologians generally agree as to the fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization, but disagree as to the quality of certitude due to a papal decree in such matter. In the opinion of some it is of faith (Arriaga, De fide, disp. 9, p. 5, no 27); others hold that to refuse assent to such a judgment of the Holy See would be both impious and rash, as Francisco Suárez (De fide, disp. 5 p. 8, no 8); many more (and this is the general view) hold such a pronouncement to be theologically certain, not being of Divine Faith as its purport has not been immediately revealed, nor of ecclesiastical Faith as having thus far not been defined by the Church.

    What is the object of this infallible judgment of the pope? Does he define that the person canonized is in heaven or only that he has practiced Christian virtues in an heroic degree? I have never seen this question discussed; my own opinion is that nothing else is defined than that the person canonized is in heaven. The formula used in the act of canonization has nothing more than this:


    "In honour of . . . we decree and define that Blessed N. is a Saint, and we inscribe his name in the catalogue of saints, and order that his memory by devoutly and piously celebrated yearly on the . . . day of . . . his feast."

    (Ad honorem . . . beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus ac sanctorum catalogo adscribimus statuentes ab ecclesiâ universali illius memoriam quolibet anno, die ejus natali . . . piâ devotione recoli debere.)

    There is no question of heroic virtue in this formula; on the other hand, sanctity does not necessarily imply the exercise of heroic virtue, since one who had not hitherto practised heroic virtue would, by the one transient heroic act in which he yielded up his life for Christ, have justly deserved to be considered a saint. This view seems all the more certain if we reflect that all the arguments of theologians for papal infallibility in the canonization of saints are based on the fact that on such occasions the popes believe and assert that the decision which they publish is infallible (Pesch, Prael. Dogm., I, 552).

    This general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization must not be extended to beatification, not withstanding the contrary teaching of the canonical commentary known as "Glossa" [in cap. un. de reliquiis et venerat. SS. (III, 22) in 6; Innocent., Comm. in quinque Decretalium libros, tit. de reliquiis, etc., no 4; Ostiensis in eumd. tit. no 10; Felini, cap. lii, De testibus, etc., X (II, 20); Caietani, tract. De indulgentiis adversus Lutherum ad Julium Mediceum; Augustini de Ancona, seu Triumphi, De potestate eccl., Q. xiv, a. 4). Canonists and theologians generally deny the infallible character of decrees of beatification, whether formal or equivalent, since it is always a permission, not a command; while it leads to canonization, it is not the last step. Moreover, in most cases, the cultus permitted by beatification, is restricted to a determined province, city, or religious body (Benedict XIV, op. cit., I, xlii). Some, however, have thought otherwise (Arriaga, Theol., V, disp. 7, p. 6; Amicus, Theol., IV, disp. 7, p. 4, no 98; Turrianus on II-II, V, disp. 17, no 6; Del Bene, De S. Inquisit. II, dub. 254).
     


    Offline Phyllo

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    Michael Matt, Fr. Joseph Fessio, Archbishop Timothy Dolan on NPR
    « Reply #8 on: May 01, 2011, 07:30:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm

    Papal infallibility and canonization

    Is the pope infallible in issuing a decree of canonization? Most theologians answer in the affirmative. It is the opinion of St. Antoninus, Melchior Cano, Suarez, Bellarmine, Bañez, Vasquez, and, among the canonists, of Gonzales Tellez, Fagnanus, Schmalzgrüber, Barbosa, Reiffenstül, Covarruvias (Variar. resol., I, x, no 13), Albitius (De Inconstantiâ in fide, xi, no 205), Petra (Comm. in Const. Apost., I, in notes to Const. I, Alex., III, no 17 sqq.), Joannes a S. Thomâ (on II-II, Q. I, disp. 9, a. 2), Silvester (Summa, s.v. Canonizatio), Del Bene (De Officio Inquisit. II, dub. 253), and many others. In Quodlib. IX, a. 16, St. Thomas says: "Since the honour we pay the saints is in a certain sense a profession of faith, i.e., a belief in the glory of the Saints [quâ sanctorum gloriam credimus] we must piously believe that in this matter also the judgment of the Church is not liable to error." These words of St. Thomas, as is evident from the authorities just cited, all favouring a positive infallibility, have been interpreted by his school in favour of papal infallibility in the matter of canonization, and this interpretation is supported by several other passages in the same Quodlibet. This infallibility, however according to the holy doctor, is only a point of pious belief. Theologians generally agree as to the fact of papal infallibility in this matter of canonization, but disagree as to the quality of certitude due to a papal decree in such matter. In the opinion of some it is of faith (Arriaga, De fide, disp. 9, p. 5, no 27); others hold that to refuse assent to such a judgment of the Holy See would be both impious and rash, as Francisco Suárez (De fide, disp. 5 p. 8, no 8); many more (and this is the general view) hold such a pronouncement to be theologically certain, not being of Divine Faith as its purport has not been immediately revealed, nor of ecclesiastical Faith as having thus far not been defined by the Church.

    What is the object of this infallible judgment of the pope? Does he define that the person canonized is in heaven or only that he has practiced Christian virtues in an heroic degree? I have never seen this question discussed; my own opinion is that nothing else is defined than that the person canonized is in heaven. The formula used in the act of canonization has nothing more than this:


    "In honour of . . . we decree and define that Blessed N. is a Saint, and we inscribe his name in the catalogue of saints, and order that his memory by devoutly and piously celebrated yearly on the . . . day of . . . his feast."

    (Ad honorem . . . beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus ac sanctorum catalogo adscribimus statuentes ab ecclesiâ universali illius memoriam quolibet anno, die ejus natali . . . piâ devotione recoli debere.)

    There is no question of heroic virtue in this formula; on the other hand, sanctity does not necessarily imply the exercise of heroic virtue, since one who had not hitherto practised heroic virtue would, by the one transient heroic act in which he yielded up his life for Christ, have justly deserved to be considered a saint. This view seems all the more certain if we reflect that all the arguments of theologians for papal infallibility in the canonization of saints are based on the fact that on such occasions the popes believe and assert that the decision which they publish is infallible (Pesch, Prael. Dogm., I, 552).

    This general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization must not be extended to beatification, not withstanding the contrary teaching of the canonical commentary known as "Glossa" [in cap. un. de reliquiis et venerat. SS. (III, 22) in 6; Innocent., Comm. in quinque Decretalium libros, tit. de reliquiis, etc., no 4; Ostiensis in eumd. tit. no 10; Felini, cap. lii, De testibus, etc., X (II, 20); Caietani, tract. De indulgentiis adversus Lutherum ad Julium Mediceum; Augustini de Ancona, seu Triumphi, De potestate eccl., Q. xiv, a. 4). Canonists and theologians generally deny the infallible character of decrees of beatification, whether formal or equivalent, since it is always a permission, not a command; while it leads to canonization, it is not the last step. Moreover, in most cases, the cultus permitted by beatification, is restricted to a determined province, city, or religious body (Benedict XIV, op. cit., I, xlii). Some, however, have thought otherwise (Arriaga, Theol., V, disp. 7, p. 6; Amicus, Theol., IV, disp. 7, p. 4, no 98; Turrianus on II-II, V, disp. 17, no 6; Del Bene, De S. Inquisit. II, dub. 254).
     


    Thanks for the link.  I did give it a fast read.  I still think that man has no authority to say that another man is in heaven.
    Thick headed? maybe, but  this is what I beleive.  I guess I just don't have enough faith in this matter