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Author Topic: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'  (Read 2117 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2023, 01:55:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on August 21, 2023, 01:16:57 PM
    So the necessity is because they (the conciliar church) possesses governance, but not the faith, correct?

    Yes.


    While the resistors do not possess the governance, but do have the faith?

    Yes.


    Together, they check off all the boxes, but separated do not?

     Yes.  Except that the necessity acquires the power of governance on a case-by-case (howsoever sustained) need.  +de Mallerais teaches that this supplied jurisdiction pertains to all aspects of the apostolate, since if it did not, the faithful would be paralyzed.

    Responses in red above.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #16 on: August 21, 2023, 02:22:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2023, 01:55:37 PM
    Responses in red above.
    So how do we know +de Mallerais's novel application of epikeia is infallible?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #17 on: August 21, 2023, 02:37:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on August 21, 2023, 02:22:26 PM
    So how do we know +de Mallerais's novel application of epikeia is infallible?

    I don't believe I made that claim.

    On the other hand, I'm not so sure its novel.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #18 on: August 21, 2023, 03:59:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2023, 08:08:15 AM
    I’m wondering whether there is a distinction to be made between “partial communion” and “partial membership?”

    Possibly, if you believe that a certain communion could be attained without membership in the Church, but what's certain is that membership is more restrictive than communion, and anyone who believes that infidels, heretics, and schismatics can be saved, must also then believe that infidels, heretics, and schismatics are within the Church (since there can be no salvation outside the Church).  So that means they can be in communion with the Church, and, since they're not actual Catholics, the communion can only be a partial one.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #19 on: August 21, 2023, 04:01:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: trento on August 21, 2023, 11:51:59 AM
    Let's say a baby was baptized by their Anglican parents in the Anglican church. Assuming the baptism was valid, it would mean the baby is actually Catholic and part of the Catholic Church, because even non-Catholics can validly administer baptism. However, on the surface they would be seen as non-Catholics. When the child reaches the age of reason and adheres to the errors of Anglicanism, only then is that person considered separated from the Catholic Church.

    OK?  Until that individual reaches the age of reason, he's fully Catholic and not in any partial communion.  I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #20 on: August 21, 2023, 04:49:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2023, 02:37:19 PM
     

    On the other hand, I'm not so sure its novel.
    So there has been a theologian who has speculated that a group of clergy could set up priories, schools, seminaries, monasteries, convents, 3rd orders, etc. without the permission of the pope or the bishop of the diocese all the while recognizing their rightful governance?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #21 on: August 21, 2023, 04:53:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on August 21, 2023, 04:49:13 PM
    So there has been a theologian who has speculated that a group of clergy could set up priories, schools, seminaries, monasteries, convents, 3rd orders, etc. without the permission of the pope or the bishop of the diocese all the while recognizing their rightful governance?

    More than that:

    They consecrated bishops and gave them jurisdiction in other Sees, without any permission from the pope (e.g., St. Eusebius of Samasota during the Arian heresy).
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #22 on: August 21, 2023, 04:56:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2023, 04:53:47 PM
    More than that:

    They consecrated bishops and gave them jurisdiction in other Sees, without any permission from the pope (e.g., St. Eusebius of Samasota during the Arian heresy).
    Wow. So Vatican I, Satis Cognitum, Etsi Multa were novel. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #23 on: August 21, 2023, 05:15:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: LeDeg on August 21, 2023, 04:56:33 PM
    Wow. So Vatican I, Satis Cognitum, Etsi Multa were novel.

    You're not a very lucid thinker, are you?
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #24 on: August 21, 2023, 05:23:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2023, 05:15:54 PM
    You're not a very lucid thinker, are you?
    Coming from a bullsh*t artist such as yourself, that's rich.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #25 on: August 21, 2023, 08:12:40 PM »
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    • Trento: Cardinal Newman, conditionally baptized A.A.Curtis.  A.A. Curtis was a methodist baby, Episcopalian in his youth, and Anglican in his maturity of age 40.  
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #26 on: August 21, 2023, 09:40:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 21, 2023, 10:27:05 AM
    But there are three elements of unity:

    1) Faith,

    2) Governance,

    3) Sacraments.

    If a man be lacking in any of the three, he cannot be a member.

    But what if he has one or two of the three?

    Many of the saints, Fathers, and Doctors (eg., St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Bellarmine et al) spoke of such being in communion with the Church, even as they remained outside it).

    This implies to me that “communion” and “membership” could be two different things, which are incessantly conflated.
    What about the eastern (un)orthodox? I've heard novus ordo catholics say that they aren't a false religion and that they just don't have the 'fullness of truth'...
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #27 on: August 21, 2023, 09:47:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on August 21, 2023, 09:40:29 PM
    What about the eastern (un)orthodox? I've heard novus ordo catholics say that they aren't a false religion and that they just don't have the 'fullness of truth'...
    Also I recently read that there was issue with bishops for 30 years in portagual when they made their own King instead of accepting a Spanish king which is the agreement they had with the church.

    I briefly saw this on a comment section in YouTube but I forgot the full details.
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    Offline trento

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #28 on: August 23, 2023, 09:46:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on August 21, 2023, 08:12:40 PM
    Trento: Cardinal Newman, conditionally baptized A.A.Curtis.  A.A. Curtis was a methodist baby, Episcopalian in his youth, and Anglican in his maturity of age 40. 

    I do not know the specifics of that case but perhaps Cardinal Newman judged A.A. Curtis' initial baptism has positive doubt to have a conditional baptism.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Mhfm refutes 'partial communion'
    « Reply #29 on: August 24, 2023, 08:16:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: trento on August 23, 2023, 09:46:54 PM
    I do not know the specifics of that case but perhaps Cardinal Newman judged A.A. Curtis' initial baptism has positive doubt to have a conditional baptism.

    Hmm... But did the jew Cardinal ever renounce the Anglican books he wrote before his high profile conversion?
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