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Offline Mr G

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Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
« on: December 22, 2024, 12:36:09 PM »
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    • Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium" | Quotidianoweb.it

    Bergoglio's "church" is not only in turmoil: it is in full delirium. If this can happen, it is precisely because it is no longer the Catholic Church, but its scandalous counterfeit, and because in place of the Pope on the Throne of Peter sits a heretical and usurping tyrant. The split between  Munus and  Ministerium is an artifice produced by the Hegelian thought of Joseph Ratzinger - Benedict XVI: I explained it extensively in my speech on the subject, speaking of a "disjointed Papacy". I would like to take this opportunity to reiterate here a concept that I consider fundamental: any attack on the divine institution of the Papacy (and, with it, on the Church) has as its ultimate goal the transformation of the sacred power of the Roman Pontiff, who is Vicar and lieutenant of the sole Authority, that of Christ the Pontiff, into a power of human origin, on the model of modern liberal democracies with a parliamentary system. This is what the heretical doctrine on synodality aims at : it undermines the divine constitution and monarchical nature of the Church, desired by its divine Founder, Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is King not only of temporal societies, but also – and above all – of religious society, that is, of the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of which He is Head.

    If Bergoglio were Pope, the promise of special assistance made by the Lord to the Prince of the Apostles and his Successors would be unfounded and false, which is completely inconceivable, as well as contrary to the Faith. If, therefore, Bergoglio can exercise his destructive action on the Church and spread his errors, this is due to the fact that his authority has been usurped with premeditation and malice, and as such it is  Null . Those who think that the crisis began with this "pontificate" are mistaken: the desire to tamper with the Roman Papacy dates back to the Second Vatican Council, continued with the encyclical Ut unum sint  of John Paul II, was confirmed by the anomaly of the Resignation of Benedict XVI and is made his own – in full coherence with his Predecessors – by Bergoglio with the Study Docuмent  The Bishop of Rome of the Dicastery for Promoting Christian Unity. Redefining the Papacy "in an ecuмenical and synodal key" is the typical Modus operandi of heretics to conceal behind vague formulas a deliberately subversive action, contrary to the Faith and constant practice of the Roman Catholic Church. 

    We must take note of the coup d'état that was orchestrated by the  Deep Church and which brought to power, up to the top of the Catholic hierarchy, the fifth columns of the enemy, that is, the Masonic anti-church, the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan. 


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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #1 on: December 22, 2024, 04:33:03 PM »
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    • Thank you for posting this.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #2 on: December 22, 2024, 05:39:04 PM »
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    • A most unfortunate deviation from the wisdom and prudence of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    If Bergoglio were Pope, the promise of special assistance made by the Lord to the Prince of the Apostles and his Successors would be unfounded and false, which is completely inconceivable, as well as contrary to the Faith.

    With all due respect to this great prelate, I am astounded he could make such a statement, so obviously false. This special assistance that Our Lord promised the Pope does not deprive him of his free will, and he must WANT to make use of it for a start. The First Vatican Council clearly defined under what circuмstances the Pope enjoys this privilege of Infallibility.

    If, therefore, Bergoglio can exercise his destructive action on the Church and spread his errors, this is due to the fact that his authority has been usurped with premeditation and malice, and as such it is Null.

    Undoubtedly there is premeditation and malice on the part of the enemies of the Church who have plotted against Her. It is not at all certain that Pope Francis is guilty in this regard. The error of modernism is sufficient to explain all the deviations of all the Popes since the Council. Read Pascendi if you do not understand this. We cannot at all conclude from this that he is not Pope or that his authority is nullified. It is yet another example of sedevacantists running on emotion and making Catholic dogmas where they do not exist.

    Even if a Pope maliciously WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH, there is no Catholic teaching that this deprives him of the Papacy. St Robert Bellarmine talks specifically of lawful resistance to a pontiff who WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #3 on: December 22, 2024, 05:48:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 22, 2024, 05:39:04 PM
    A most unfortunate deviation from the wisdom and prudence of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    If Bergoglio were Pope, the promise of special assistance made by the Lord to the Prince of the Apostles and his Successors would be unfounded and false, which is completely inconceivable, as well as contrary to the Faith.

    With all due respect to this great prelate, I am astounded he could make such a statement, so obviously false.

    Sorry, but if you hold this to be false, then you're an Old Catholic heretic.  This is Catholicism 101 ... and Archbishop Lefebvre actually upheld this principle, your heretical rambling notwithstanding.  Your absurd nonsense about Popes having free will (which is obvious) does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not protect the Papacy from wrecking the Church so badly that one not only can be even must in conscience leave said Church.  Unbelievable.  Read what +Lefebvre actually wrote about the subject instead of imposing your Old Catholic heresy on him.

    And that fact that you find a fundamental and most basis dogma of Catholicism, without which the entire Church is pointless, to be "astounding" is infact what's astounding.  There are no words.  You need to actually convert back to the Catholic faith, instead of whatever Prot/Old Catholic heresy you've slid into here.

    Shall I quote +Lefebvre (again, as I've quoted him 50 times here on CI) where he rejects your heresy?  You can stop hiding behind +Lefebvre as if he was an Old Catholic like yourself.
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    Offline Dominique

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #4 on: December 22, 2024, 06:33:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 22, 2024, 05:39:04 PM
    A most unfortunate deviation from the wisdom and prudence of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    If Bergoglio were Pope, the promise of special assistance made by the Lord to the Prince of the Apostles and his Successors would be unfounded and false, which is completely inconceivable, as well as contrary to the Faith.

    With all due respect to this great prelate, I am astounded he could make such a statement, so obviously false. This special assistance that Our Lord promised the Pope does not deprive him of his free will, and he must WANT to make use of it for a start. The First Vatican Council clearly defined under what circuмstances the Pope enjoys this privilege of Infallibility.

    If, therefore, Bergoglio can exercise his destructive action on the Church and spread his errors, this is due to the fact that his authority has been usurped with premeditation and malice, and as such it is Null.

    Undoubtedly there is premeditation and malice on the part of the enemies of the Church who have plotted against Her. It is not at all certain that Pope Francis is guilty in this regard. The error of modernism is sufficient to explain all the deviations of all the Popes since the Council. Read Pascendi if you do not understand this. We cannot at all conclude from this that he is not Pope or that his authority is nullified. It is yet another example of sedevacantists running on emotion and making Catholic dogmas where they do not exist.

    Even if a Pope maliciously WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH, there is no Catholic teaching that this deprives him of the Papacy. St Robert Bellarmine talks specifically of lawful resistance to a pontiff who WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH.
    Archbishop Lefebvre said, among other things: "We are really dealing with an incredible, unbelievable mafia, certainly linked to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. We must pray: they are no longer in the Catholic Church". "I think it is fair to say that these people occupying Rome today are anti-Christs". "These people can no longer be trusted, they have left the Church, they have left the Church. Sure, sure, sure."
    I mean, you can argue the anti-Christ can be Pope, but we are playing with words here, really...
    After all, the Archbishop clearly said: "We may have to believe that this pope is not the pope". This was at the time of John-Paul II!!
    Of course no one can say that with authority except another Pope, but we are allowed to think so, without making a dogma out of it, or changing the Canon of the Mass to suit our opinion!
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #5 on: December 23, 2024, 03:10:03 AM »
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    • L 👀 k around a dozen novus ordo parishes. It’s hard to argue that delirium does not hold sway.  My opinion, for what little it’s worth; the pope question will not be definitively answered until Our Lord reigns King and Our Lady, Queen on earth.  In the meantime, mgake it your business to see to the salvation of your soul and the souls in your care.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #6 on: December 23, 2024, 04:34:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 22, 2024, 05:39:04 PM
    A most unfortunate deviation from the wisdom and prudence of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    If Bergoglio were Pope, the promise of special assistance made by the Lord to the Prince of the Apostles and his Successors would be unfounded and false, which is completely inconceivable, as well as contrary to the Faith.

    With all due respect to this great prelate, I am astounded he could make such a statement, so obviously false. This special assistance that Our Lord promised the Pope does not deprive him of his free will, and he must WANT to make use of it for a start. The First Vatican Council clearly defined under what circuмstances the Pope enjoys this privilege of Infallibility.

    If, therefore, Bergoglio can exercise his destructive action on the Church and spread his errors, this is due to the fact that his authority has been usurped with premeditation and malice, and as such it is Null.

    Undoubtedly there is premeditation and malice on the part of the enemies of the Church who have plotted against Her. It is not at all certain that Pope Francis is guilty in this regard. The error of modernism is sufficient to explain all the deviations of all the Popes since the Council. Read Pascendi if you do not understand this. We cannot at all conclude from this that he is not Pope or that his authority is nullified. It is yet another example of sedevacantists running on emotion and making Catholic dogmas where they do not exist.

    Even if a Pope maliciously WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH, there is no Catholic teaching that this deprives him of the Papacy. St Robert Bellarmine talks specifically of lawful resistance to a pontiff who WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH.
    Yes PV, your post has always been common sensus fidei, but the good archbishop has yet to purge all the liberal, NO ideas related to the papacy from his system, but hopefully time will remedy this.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #7 on: December 23, 2024, 04:41:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 22, 2024, 05:48:02 PM
    Sorry, but if you hold this to be false, then you're an Old Catholic heretic.  This is Catholicism 101 ... and Archbishop Lefebvre actually upheld this principle, your heretical rambling notwithstanding.  Your absurd nonsense about Popes having free will (which is obvious) does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not protect the Papacy from wrecking the Church so badly that one not only can be even must in conscience leave said Church.  Unbelievable.  Read what +Lefebvre actually wrote about the subject instead of imposing your Old Catholic heresy on him.

    And that fact that you find a fundamental and most basis dogma of Catholicism, without which the entire Church is pointless, to be "astounding" is infact what's astounding.  There are no words.  You need to actually convert back to the Catholic faith, instead of whatever Prot/Old Catholic heresy you've slid into here.

    Shall I quote +Lefebvre (again, as I've quoted him 50 times here on CI) where he rejects your heresy?  You can stop hiding behind +Lefebvre as if he was an Old Catholic like yourself.
    You're still trapped in your conundrum: "The Pope cannot preach heresy, but if he does, he is no longer pope - but popes cannot preach heresy! - but if he does he is no longer pope....ad infinitum." You old catholic you. :sleep:
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #8 on: December 23, 2024, 10:30:29 AM »
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    Undoubtedly there is premeditation and malice on the part of the enemies of the Church who have plotted against Her.
    This is an obvious and historical fact, based on many sources, most notably
    a) the "V2 fathers" themselves...who admitted they wanted to destroy orthodoxy and have a "french revolution" in the Church
    b) the post-V2 popes, and all their actions, sermons and writings
    c) the uncovering of docuмents of Italian freemasons, who laid out their plans to infiltrate the Church

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    It is not at all certain that Pope Francis is guilty in this regard.
    Irrelevant.  Heresy is still heresy, whether premeditation or not.  Premeditation only determines the extent of guilt.

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    The error of modernism is sufficient to explain all the deviations of all the Popes since the Council. Read Pascendi if you do not understand this. We cannot at all conclude from this that he is not Pope or that his authority is nullified.
    Whether the V2 popes were heretics BEFORE their papacy is irrelevant.  But, one can easily make the case that Francis was a heretic, simply looking at his many and various inter-faith ceremonies while he was a bishop in Argentina.  He had drunk the V2 kool-aid long before his papacy.

    Secondly, you're not distinguishing the two types of authority.  Spiritual and temporal/govt.  Heresy impedes/impounds/nullifies spiritual authority.  Period.  End of story. 
    If you want to argue that the pope still has temporal/govt authority in the Church, then fine.  But if you're still clinging to the fantasy that a heretic pope has spiritual authority, you're crazy.  And this might also be a heresy itself.

    If you want to argue that a heretic pope is "still the pope", I have no problem with this, as long as you say he still holds the seat, in a temporal way.  Further, if you want to argue that the pope could convert tomorrow and regain his spiritual authority, I see no problem with this either.

    But one cannot say that a heretic still retains spiritual authority.  No saint or doctor of the Church, and neither does Canon Law, bear this out.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #9 on: December 23, 2024, 10:43:50 AM »
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    Even if a Pope maliciously WANTS TO DESTROY THE CHURCH, there is no Catholic teaching that this deprives him of the Papacy.
    Ok, so let's assume you're right.  This means there is NEVER the possibility that a pope loses his office.  Because if Francis doesn't lose it, then nobody ever will.  He's that bad.


    This brings up the question...

    Why did St Bellarmine, Cajetan, John of St Thomas, Suarez, etc....the greatest theologians of the time in the post-Middle Ages....why did they spend so much time pondering the details of why/how a pope could/would lose his office?

    Their original answers were
    a) "It's the 'pious opinion' that God would never let a pope fall into heresy."  --- Well, we know now that God WOULD ALLOW this.
    b) But if he did, here's what might happen.

    If you are correct, then answer (b) should have been "But if he did fall into heresy, he still retains his office, until God removes him by death."  End of debate.

    But it WASN'T the end of the debate.  These theologians did NOT say that the pope would always retain his office.  Which means he CAN lose his office.  Their debate was PRECISELY upon the question of "What happens if a heretic pope loses his office and how would the church/cardinals respond?"

    These learned men were open to the idea/possibility.  Not sure why you're not.  
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #10 on: December 23, 2024, 11:33:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 23, 2024, 10:30:29 AM
    If you want to argue that the pope still has temporal/govt authority in the Church, then fine.  But if you're still clinging to the fantasy that a heretic pope has spiritual authority, you're crazy.  And this might also be a heresy itself.

    If a pope has temporal/govt. authority but not spiritual authority, then he ain't pope.  Your dividing of the papal office, as divinely constituted, doesn't exist.  It's analogous to Benedict XVI renouncing the ministerium but retaining the munus.  Not possible.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #11 on: December 23, 2024, 12:55:48 PM »
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    • Quote
    If a pope has temporal/govt. authority but not spiritual authority, then he ain't pope.
    Pope St Pius X and Pius XII would disagree.  
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #12 on: December 24, 2024, 08:16:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 23, 2024, 12:55:48 PM
    Pope St Pius X and Pius XII would disagree. 

    Prove it.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #13 on: December 24, 2024, 10:24:34 AM »
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    It's analogous to Benedict XVI renouncing the ministerium but retaining the munus.  Not possible.
    This is not meant as a commentary on what Benedict did or didn’t do…honestly, I don’t care what he did, didn’t do or attempted to do. 

    But the fact remains that most things in the church are made up of 2 different aspects.  The human and divine.  The temporal vs spiritual.  The matter vs form. 

    When you say that “he ain’t pope” because 1 of these 2 aspects is missing or deficient, you are both right and wrong. It’s a matter of perspective.  It involves distinguishing.  The correct answer is, he’s pope in one sense and not pope in another sense.  You’re oversimplifying. 

    One cannot discuss theology without the use of distinguishing.  There are no simple answers in this area. 
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò: "Today's Church is in full delirium"
    « Reply #14 on: December 26, 2024, 07:59:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 24, 2024, 10:24:34 AM
    This is not meant as a commentary on what Benedict did or didn’t do…honestly, I don’t care what he did, didn’t do or attempted to do. 

    But the fact remains that most things in the church are made up of 2 different aspects.  The human and divine.  The temporal vs spiritual.  The matter vs form. 

    When you say that “he ain’t pope” because 1 of these 2 aspects is missing or deficient, you are both right and wrong. It’s a matter of perspective.  It involves distinguishing.  The correct answer is, he’s pope in one sense and not pope in another sense.  You’re oversimplifying.

    One cannot discuss theology without the use of distinguishing.  There are no simple answers in this area.

    You wrote that two popes would disagree with me.  I asked you to prove it, but you did not.  Why is it that you do not provide evidence to back up your claims? (just like when you were not able to back up your claim that only the Church can judge one guilty of the public sin of manifest formal heresy)
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