Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Catholic Knight on October 20, 2023, 06:58:28 AM
-
This is absolutely disgusting! A docuмent of the synod currently happening in Rome claims we should have a merciful heart towards demons! Nay! Rather, we should hate all demons and all souls in hell with a passion!
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_074542.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075059.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075121.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075139.png)
Source (https://www.synod.va/content/dam/synod/common/spirituality/Spirituality-of-Synodality-A4-Orizzontale-EN.pdf)
-
This is absolutely disgusting! A docuмent of the synod currently happening in Rome claims we should have a merciful heart towards demons! Nay! Rather, we should hate all demons and all souls in hell with a passion!
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_074542.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075059.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075121.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075139.png)
Source (https://www.synod.va/content/dam/synod/common/spirituality/Spirituality-of-Synodality-A4-Orizzontale-EN.pdf)
Sorry. This is allegedly a quote of St. Isaac the Syrian. Moderator, please delete this thread.
-
Sorry. This is allegedly a quote of St. Isaac the Syrian. Moderator, please delete this thread.
I don't like that quote either, no matter who said it, but it would figure that's something they'd quote. Too bad the hypocrites don't love the True Mass.
-
Wait, what?! A saint said we should be merciful towards demons??! No, I highly doubt that. I want to see the quote in context. A saint is perfectly united to the will of God, and God hates demons, so shouldn't we do so as well?
Not to mention, just simple common sense. :trollface:
UPDATE: Okay, so this guy isn't actually a saint after all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_the_Syrian). This is from Wikipedia:
Isaac the Syrian (Syriac (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language): ܡܪܝ ܐܝܣܚܩ ܕܢܝܢܘܐ; Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): إسحاق النينوي Ishaq an-Naynuwī; Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ἰσαὰκ Σῦρος; c. 613 – c. 700), also remembered as Saint Isaac the Syrian,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_the_Syrian#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_the_Syrian#cite_note-5) Isaac of Nineveh, Abba Isaac, Isaac Syrus and Isaac of Qatar,[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_the_Syrian#cite_note-6) was a 7th-century Syriac Christian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Christianity) bishop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop) and theologian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theologian) best remembered for his written (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language) works on Christian asceticism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism). He is regarded as a saint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint) in the Assyrian Church of the East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East), the Catholic churches (Chaldean Catholic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Catholic), Syro-Malabar Church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Malabar_Church)), and Eastern Orthodox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox) tradition.
-
Still, that sure is a bizarre quote.
And what's with the "family of reptiles" mentioned at the end??! :confused:::):facepalm:
-
I doubt anyone has the patience to go through all of this, but the entire canon of Isaac the Syrian is read and discussed in the study group led by Fr. Abernethy.
https://philokalia.podbean.com/category/ascetical-homilies-of-st-isaac-the-syrian/
I'm listening to these study group podcasts, and I find them fantastic. There is some novus ordo glop here and there, and some "soft-on-the-Orthodox" glop, but I find such glop no impediment to my learning and benefitting from the information presented. The substance and body of the presentations are the spirituality of the Church, albeit using the lexicon of the East. It's the most refreshing thing I've come across in a long time. Not only that, but I've been making some progress in exactly the areas where I most need amendment. Thus the fruit so far is good.
Fr. Abernethy has two groups running concurrently, each of which has been going for over a year. I joined both of them. They are Monday and Wednesday evenings, seven thirty eastern time. They are free. You subscribe online and participate by zoom. You can ask questions or comment.
-
Pray for the family of reptiles? Why yes, I pray for the conversion of jews every day.
-
Wait, what?! A saint said we should be merciful towards demons??! No, I highly doubt that. I want to see the quote in context. A saint is perfectly united to the will of God, and God hates demons, so shouldn't we do so as well?
Not to mention, just simple common sense. :trollface:
UPDATE: Okay, so this guy isn't actually a saint after all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_the_Syrian). This is from Wikipedia:
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08176a.htm
-
Pray for the family of reptiles? Why yes, I pray for the conversion of Jєωs every day.
.
I wonder if the "family of reptiles" is some sort of veiled allusion to the demons again, i.e. the ancient serpent, the great dragon?
-
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08176a.htm
.
Opening words of the article:
A Nestorian (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm) bishop (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) of that city ...
:laugh2:
-
Here's another one:
https://www.catholic365.com/article/27532/saint-isaac-of-nineveh-and-syriac-christian-thought.html
The article affirms that "He is numbered among the saints by the Catholic Church, the Church of the East, the Ancient Oriental Orthodox Churches (Copts and Ethiopians), and the Eastern Orthodox Church." However it gives no authority for this statement. It seems like the exact same sentence in the wiki article. Hmmm.......
-
.
I wonder if the "family of reptiles" is some sort of veiled allusion to the demons again, i.e. the ancient serpent, the great dragon?
Also the deities of South America?
-
.
Opening words of the article:
:laugh2:
Yes, it saddens me because I've been really enjoying the podcasts on Climacus and Cassian. I haven't listened to the series on Isaac.
This Fr. Abernethy was an Oratorian for a long time, and recently went over to the Eastern Catholics. He does seem very enamored with the Orthodox. Poor man.
-
For what it's worth:
https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/63379/St.%20Isaac%20the%20Syrian,%20Nestoria
https://stphilipofsacramento.wordpress.com/2020/10/04/bulletin-for-oct-4-2020/
-
.
Opening words of the article:
:laugh2:
To be precise, Isaac was not the said Nestorian Bishop.
-
I just emailed Fr. Abernethy. I asked him if Isaac is a canonized Saint in the Eastern Catholic Church.
:popcorn:
-
To be precise, Isaac was not the said Nestorian Bishop.
.
I don't follow. Wikipedia said Isaac the Syrian is also known as Isaac of Nineveh. The Novus Ordo docuмent even identifies him under both names. The Catholic Encyclopedia article you quote says this person was a Nestorian bishop:
A Nestorian (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm) bishop (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) of that city in the latter half of the seventh century, being consecrated (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04276a.htm) by the Nestorian (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm) Patriarch George (660-80). Originally a monk (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10487b.htm) of the monastery (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04340c.htm) of Bethabe in Kurdistan, he abdicated for unknown reasons after an episcopate of but five months ...
-
According to Wikipedia, this clown doesn't believe hell is eternal, either. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_the_Syrian#Universal_Reconciliation) Now I see why he was quoted by the synod. Also, I think that explains his request for us to pray for the demons. :trollface:
-
.
I don't follow. Wikipedia said Isaac the Syrian is also known as Isaac of Nineveh. The Novus Ordo docuмent even identifies him under both names. The Catholic Encyclopedia article you quote says this person was a Nestorian bishop:
My bad. You are correct.
I heard back from Fr. Abernethy. He is on the road, and could not reply in full. He said that if you read the entirety of Isaac the Syrian you will find that he NEVER said anything like what the SIN-od on SIN-modality quoted. He said that he will reach back out when he can.
I know for a fact that Father has covered in painstaking detail everything in print on Isaac. Therefore I believe him. I do not now hold Isaac in contempt as some insane heresiarch, just because the insane heresiarch Bergoglio co-opted him.
One last thought, Isaac is valued a spiritual father, not as a theologian. Maybe at worst he might be in the category of a Tertullian or an Origen, but I think better of him, because he did not traffic in theology.
-
According to Wikipedia, this clown doesn't believe hell is eternal, either. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_the_Syrian#Universal_Reconciliation) Now I see why he was quoted by the synod. Also, I think that explains his request for us to pray for the demons. :trollface:
Who knows what he said. I'm going to listen to the series on him now, just to understand his writing. I'm not ready to call him a clown or believe wikipedia, without first looking into it. For most it would be considered a waste of time. But I'm very interested in desert spirituality, so it's worth the deep dive to me.
-
I did not read this, but was directed to it as being the sermon in question:
https://jbburnett.com/resources/Isaac-the-Syrian-Homily-51.pdf
I think this has to do with the claim that Isaac does not hold for an eternal hell.
-
The Source docuмent featured in the OP quotes the 74th Homily of Isaac.
It can be read here:
https://ia800306.us.archive.org/3/items/IsaacOfNinevehMysticTreatises/isaac_of_nineveh_mystical_treatises.pdf
or here:
https://syri.ac/brock/isaac
-
PRAYER COMPOSED BY ST. ISAAC THE SYRIAN
O Lord Jesus Christ our God,
Thou that didst weep over Lazarus,
and shed tears of sorrow and compassion for him,
accept the tears of my bitterness.
By Thy Passion cure my passions.
By Thy wounds, heal my wounds.
By Thy Blood, purge my blood; and mingle the fragrance of Thy life-creating Body with my body.
Let the gall Thou didst drink at enemies’ hands,
sweeten my soul from the bitterness which the foe has given me to drink.
Let Thy Body, O Lover of men,
which was stretched on the Tree of the Cross,
extend toward Thee mine intellect,
which is dragged evilly downward by demons.
Let Thy Head,
which Thou didst bow on the Cross, raise up my head,
which is buffeted by mine adversaries.
Let Thine all-holy Hands,
which were nailed to the Cross by the unbelieving Jews,
lead me out of the abyss of perdition to Thee,
as Thine All-holy Mouth hath promised.
Let Thy Countenance,
which received blows and spittings from accursed men,
brighten my countenance, which is stained with iniquities.
Let Thy Soul,
which on the Cross Thou didst commend to Thy Father,
guide me to Thee by Thy grace.
I have not a mournful heart wherewith to seek Thee,
I have no repentance,
I have no compunction,
which bring children into their proper inheritance.
O Master, I have not a comforting tear.
My mind is darkened by the affairs of this life,
and hath no strength to look steadfastly toward Thee with groaning.
My heart is grown cold from the multitude of temptations,
and cannot warm herself with tears of love for Thee.
But Thou, O Lord and God Jesus Christ,
the Treasury of good gifts,
grant me thorough repentance and a sorrowing heart,
that with all my soul I may go forth to seek Thee.
For without Thee,
I am a stranger to all that is good.
Therefore, O Good One,
freely grant me Thy grace.
Let the Father,
Who hath timelessly and everlastingly brought Thee forth from His bosom,
renew in me the features of Thine image.
I have forsaken Thee,
do not forsake me.
I have gone out from Thee,
come out to seek me,
and lead me up to Thy pasture,
and number me among the sheep of Thy chosen flock,
and nourish me with them on the verdure of Thy Divine Mysteries;
for their pure heart is Thy lodging-place,
and therein is the illumination of Thy revelations clearly beheld,
which is the comfort and refreshment
of those who for Thy sake have travailed
in afflictions and every kind of outrage.
May I also be deemed worthy of this illumination
by Thy grace and love for man,
O our Savior Jesus Christ,
unto the ages of ages.
Amen.
-
Novus Ordo Watch did an excellent article on this (https://novusordowatch.org/2023/10/synod-spirituality-on-fire-for-demons-and-reptiles/). Isaac of Syria has other heresies besides universalism. I recommend the read. He quotes the Encyclopedia of Monasticism that has this disturbing passage describing Isaac's ideas:
Divine love dwells at the foundation of the universe, it governs the world, and it will lead the world to a glorious outcome when the latter will be entirely “consumed” by the Godhead. God loves equally the righteous and sinners, angels and demons. God’s love toward fallen angels does not diminish as a result of their fall, and it is not less than the fullness of love that He has toward other angels.
-
Novus Ordo Watch did an excellent article on this (https://novusordowatch.org/2023/10/synod-spirituality-on-fire-for-demons-and-reptiles/). Isaac of Syria has other heresies besides universalism. I recommend the read. He quotes the Encyclopedia of Monasticism that has this disturbing passage describing Isaac's ideas:
From the NOW article:
It is difficult to count all the heresies in Isaac’s thought as laid out above ...
Passage he's referring to contains no heresies, so not sure what he's talking about. Maybe that's why he left it at being "difficult to count". Well, I counted zero.
-
It's absolutely true that ex parte Dei, God has nothing but love for demons. God is love. It's ex parte objecti that it becomes or manifests itself as hatred, the refusal to accept God's love, which then causes torment because the souls was created to receive God's love. And the fact that demons continue to exist is a manifestation of that love.
Of course, in actual practice, Jorge translates this sin being no big deal because God loves you anyway, but I find nothing objectionable or "heretical" about the core concept. God is perfectly simple, does not change, doesn't have different aspects or (what we anthropomorphize as) "emotions" towards individual souls. And, as far as all His creation is concerned, God is love. So if God is "said" to hate, it's just our human manner of thinking or speaking, since this love of God does violence toward the soul that refuses to accept it.
-
From the NOW article:
Passage he's referring to contains no heresies, so not sure what he's talking about. Maybe that's why he left it at being "difficult to count". Well, I counted zero.
Thank you, Lad. I don’t feel so alone anymore! LOL!!!!
In the current stampede to publicize the crimes of Bergoglio et. al. - objectively a noble work indeed - some poor anchoritic desert slob (and maybe even a Saint?) is being mud-racked to bits - for no good reason.
Perhaps the grinders of the lions are forgetting a solid, oft-demonstrated, and golden principle: The Vatican II scuм co-opt even the words of Sacred Scripture, and try to make them ring with their own falsity.
What has become of Isaac in this sirocco? Certainly folk are making of him a dervish, a dust devil of epic heresiarchal proportions. Really?
My reading of the “catastrophe” is that it’s more of the same infelicitous Vatican II nonsense, and that it has nothing to do with Isaac the Syrian. Why then are we being summoned to convene an inquisition against this man, or to call a crusade to “clown him with many clowns?” It ain’t about Isaac.
Vatican II is the clown of many clowns.
As far as Isaac is concerned, the Catholic Encyclopedia saith:
“Towards the end of his life he passed under a cloud as his Nestorian orthodoxy became suspected. He was author of three theses, which found but little acceptance amongst Nestorians. Daniel Bar Tubanita, Bishop of Beth Garmai (some 100 miles south-east of Mossul), took umbrage at his teaching and became his ardent opponent. The precise contents of these theses are not known, but they were of too Catholic a character to be compatible with Nestorian heresy. From an extant prayer of his, addressed to Christ it is certainly difficult to realize that its author was a Nestorian. Eager to claim so great a writer, the monophysites falsified his biography, placing his life at the beginning of the seventh century, making him a monk of the Jacobite monastery of Mar Mattai, and stating that he retired to the desert of Scete in Egypt. Since the discovery of Ishodenah's "Book of Chastity" by Chabot in 1895 the above details of Isaac's life are beyond doubt, and all earlier accounts must be corrected accordingly. Isaac was a fruitful ascetical writer and his works were for centuries the main food of Syrian piety ……. Isaac's writings possess passages of singular beauty and elevation, and remind the reader of Thomas à Kempis.”
With regard to the controversial passage, the anti-Vatican cited Homily 74. No, it’s Homily 71. I do have to thank Mario Derksen for helping me find the confounded thing. Were it not for him, I would have given up the search. Thank you, Derksen!
Here is a discussion of the now infamous passage during the study group on Isaac conducted by Fr. Abernethy. It took place in February 2020, long before anyone might want to guard his speech.
Discussion of Homily 71, begins at minute 32:50; the infamous passage at 46:25:
https://philokalia.podbean.com/e/the-ascetical-homilies-of-saint-isaac-the-syrian-homily-seventy-part-ii-and-homily-seventy-one-part-i/
As anyone can see, this is a discussion centered entirely on the spiritual life. Father notes the surprising aspect of Isaac’s definition of purity of heart, and goes on to discuss its application.
The Vatican II sect worships reptiles. That’s why they especially love South American idolatry. They found a passage in some relatively obscure yet prolific desert father that made them salivate wildly. They co-opted him. All the more reason to give him the benefit of the doubt.
One final principle to keep in mind. If we are looking for a consistently presented doctrine, we must study the entire body of work. We do not pull one paragraph out of thousands and thousands of words, in order to distill the essence of a corpus of instruction. If you look at the entire canon of Isaac, then perhaps you will find that he believes in the spiritual combat as much as any desert father, and does not advocate “sympathy with the devil.” That we could - in knee-jerk fashion - accuse him of such a thing, simply because of this newest Vatican II outrage, actually makes us clowns.
-
Thank you, Lad. I don’t feel so alone anymore! LOL!!!!
Yeah, as I said, one has to understand the context. If one is looking at the matter from the standpoint of pure theology, it's true that God only loves. God is love, and God is perfectly simple and doesn't change moods depending on whether someone is a sinner, etc. Of course, Our Lord, being also Man, would manifest differently toward different individuals, since when "translated" into human terms, God can be Merciful and God can be wrathful. But even then it has nothing to do with the Lord's dispositions and everything to do with the individual toward whom this love is directed.
So, for instance, if we have children, we know that we can get angry with them, but the anger is simply a different expression of love ... barring sinful incidents where we lose our temper because we're annoyed ... but Our Lord was not subject to such passions and failings. We are angry at them because they are doing something that is harming them, so it's merely a different expression of love. When they are doing something pleasing to God and for their good, we are happy with them. When they are doing something that displeases God and is to their harm and detriment, we become angry ... due to a privation of the good that we desire for them
As St. Augustine brilliantly explained, evil has no existence, but is merely the privation of a due good. So, the fact that demons still exist, means that there's some good there. Pure evil does not exist.
Now, the problem with Jorge et al. is that they've co-opted this mystical and theological perspective and translated in the practical order to mean, "Hey, no problem, sodomites, God loves you as if you were straight."
That is in fact not love but hatred. If a child is just about to eat a piece of cake that you know is poisoned, who loves the child more, the individual who yells and then slaps it out of the child's hand, leaving the child crying due to being deprived of the cake, or the one who let's the child eat the cake so that he would not be upset due to not having it?
-
Yeah, as I said, one has to understand the context.
And the context of this deployment of Isaac the Syrian is the satanic Vatican II anti-church disseminating it's foul sputum. The devil quoted Scripture, out of its proper context, to our Lord Jesus Christ in the desert; and our Incarnate God put things back into their proper perspective.
I think that Fr. Abernethy made a good beginning of keeping Isaac's words in their proper context, and of challenging our puny hearts to expand their contracted notions of "Deus Caritas Est."
Lad saith: Now, the problem with Jorge et al. is that they've co-opted this mystical and theological perspective and translated in the practical order to mean, "Hey, no problem, sodomites, God loves you as if you were straight."
That is in fact not love but hatred.
Thou hast spoken well.
Pax!
-
This is absolutely disgusting! A docuмent of the synod currently happening in Rome claims we should have a merciful heart towards demons! Nay! Rather, we should hate all demons and all souls in hell with a passion!
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_074542.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075059.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075121.png)
(https://ecclesiamilitans.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-20_075139.png)
Source (https://www.synod.va/content/dam/synod/common/spirituality/Spirituality-of-Synodality-A4-Orizzontale-EN.pdf)
You are right.
-
And having turned, He said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For your thoughts are not of the things of God, but the things of men."
-
The Novus Ordo Watch article reminds me of an event that took place back in 2015 on the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, no less:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G1o4V6gxXpk
https://novusordowatch.org/2023/10/synod-spirituality-on-fire-for-demons-and-reptiles/