You never know?

There are too many problems with this idea to list.  For example:

The pope is the proximate rule of faith.  His teachings can be sure guidance for salvation.  If he is "invincibly ignorant" of Catholic doctrine, then he cannot be a sure guide.

If the pope is invincibly ignorant of Catholic doctrine, that means there is simply no way for him to learn the Truth.  If the pope cannot know Catholic doctrine, then there is no hope of anyone knowing Catholic doctrine.    It is unreasonable to believe that there is no way Bergoglio can discover Catholic doctrine.  If he is ignorant of Catholic doctrine, it is because he chooses to be ignorant, not because he is incapable of finding the Truth.

The Catholic faith cannot be hidden unless every book, every catechism, every tradition that predates Vatican 2 is burned, erased, and forgotten.  Bergoglio has been told what is expected of him in his various offices by his advisors and he has purposely rejected those counsels and even made a point that he is doing so--thus the humbleness façade that is part of his clear marketing strategy.  He is not ignorant of what he ignores for he does so conspicuously.

Such thoughts of this is wishful thinking--grasping at straws to find some way to excuse him.  

You never know?

I don't think you are though.  Not invincibly anyway.

I was not sure someone who claimed to be the Pope could claim invincible ignorance.  That would go for any who claim any legitimate ecclesiastical office.  He really does not know what the Catholic Church has always taught?  He has not rejected it?

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches BOB/D but it does not teach at all whether BERGI is going to be damned or not.  She does teach that objectively speaking, based on exteriors that it would appear that he is on the path to eternal damnation unless he repents before he dies.  But if some what to claim he is invincibly ignorant on what the Catholic Church has taught and that he does not reject the Catholic faith I guess they can.  Then give me some of what your having so long as it wares off.    :smoke-pot:

The old joke...is the pope Catholic? Is not a joke anymore.

Tell me about it.  

.

The International Forum:

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: fast777

The old joke...is the pope Catholic? Is not a joke anymore.

Tell me about it.  

Not much to tell,but the obvious answer known to all was "yes",in prior times.

Is it still obvious?

Dear fast777, 2Vermont was agreeing with you.  When he said "tell me about it" he was using an American idiom that does not mean what the words would appear to mean.  It's like saying, 'alleluia' with a twinge of irony, because he doesn't really want you to explain what he already understands;  or it's like saying, "Here! Here!" -if you're in England.  He was telling you that your words,

"The old joke, 'Is the pope Catholic?' -isn't a joke anymore!"  

-are words that might find their way into everyday speech, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear!  There are different ways of putting it:

"The old joke isn't a joke anymore."  Oh no?  How so?  "Is the pope Catholic?"

"When does the old joke stop being a joke?"  I don't know, when?  "When you can't ask, Is the pope Catholic, and still get a laugh."

When JPII was elected, Polish people all over the world had a great time with the old joke, "Is the Pope Polish?"  Because the answer to that question in the past had always been "No."  Now, suddenly, with the first Pole in the Chair of St. Peter, they would wait for a situation where the answer was obviously "Yes" and they would ask, "Is the Pope Polish?"  

I knew a Polish family, when their aunt was out shopping, and the question was asked, "Is Aunt Letty going to get some kielbasa?" -the answer would be, "Is the Pope Polish?" -but the person saying that would be the only one in the room who wasn't laughing!  It's funnier when you don't laugh at your own jokes.  HAHAHAHA

Then I knew another Polish family who did not appreciate this story, when I told them that I knew a Polish boy, about 7 years old, and one day I explained to him that he should wait for a time when his mother is asking him a question and the answer is obviously "yes."  I gave him an example, and he was listening intently as he understood me.  I then told him, INSTEAD of you answering her that way, don't say "yes," but instead say, "Is the Pope Polish?" -and watch what your mother does then.  About 3 weeks later, I saw him again, and he was smiling at me, so I asked him if he tried what I had told him (I didn't even have to remind him about the topic), and he said, "YES!" (He suddenly had the look on his face like, "Oh, darn, I missed another chance just now!"  I asked him if he had said, Is the Pope Polish?  He said that he did.  Then I asked him what his mother did then, and he replied, "She laughed!"  That boy is now in a master's program at a major university.

You would think a Polish family would enjoy this story.  But as I said, I knew another Polish family who did not appreciate it.  Why do you suppose that was the case?

I was not sure someone who claimed to be the Pope could claim invincible ignorance.  That would go for any who claim any legitimate ecclesiastical office.  He really does not know what the Catholic Church has always taught?  He has not rejected it?

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches BOB/D but it does not teach at all whether BERGI is going to be damned or not.  She does teach that objectively speaking, based on exteriors that it would appear that he is on the path to eternal damnation unless he repents before he dies.  But if some what to claim he is invincibly ignorant on what the Catholic Church has taught and that he does not reject the Catholic faith I guess they can.  Then give me some of what your having so long as it wares off.    :smoke pot:

The first problem with this is that the Church does not teach BoB/D "infallibly," then other problems stem from that.  This is like saying that Vat.II teaches infallibly, because it's a council, or that a catechism teaches infallibly because it was approved by a censor liborum, etc.  The front page with a "Nihil Obstat" does not mean something couldn't have been overlooked!  

An unrelated problem with your post is that the word "wares" is misspelled.  Ironically, it's your 'wares' that are suspect.


.

I was not sure someone who claimed to be the Pope could claim invincible ignorance.  That would go for any who claim any legitimate ecclesiastical office.  He really does not know what the Catholic Church has always taught?  He has not rejected it?

The Catholic Church infallibly teaches BOB/D but it does not teach at all whether BERGI is going to be damned or not.  She does teach that objectively speaking, based on exteriors that it would appear that he is on the path to eternal damnation unless he repents before he dies.  But if some what to claim he is invincibly ignorant on what the Catholic Church has taught and that he does not reject the Catholic faith I guess they can.  Then give me some of what your having so long as it wares off.    :smoke-pot:

What are you smoking, LoT?

The Catholic Church infallibly rejects BOD and what you are saying about the Pope doesn't make any sense. Of course, not him not anyone for that matter can claim invincible ignorance as an excuse for the rejection of the dogmas of the Faith and the damnation of the soul. "Invincible ignorance" just doesn't exist under this context.

Although for a BODer anything is possible... Pope Francis just doesn't know what he's doing and he is misguiding countless souls through not fault of his own because he himself doesn't know the Faith? How absurd that is!  This possibility can only exist in a BODer's mind.

.

The International Forum:

Quote from: fast777

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: fast777

The old joke...is the pope Catholic? Is not a joke anymore.

Tell me about it.  

Not much to tell,but the obvious answer known to all was "yes",in prior times.

Is it still obvious?

Dear fast777, 2Vermont was agreeing with you.  When he said "tell me about it" he was using an American idiom that does not mean what the words would appear to mean.  It's like saying, 'alleluia' with a twinge of irony, because he doesn't really want you to explain what he already understands;  or it's like saying, "Here! Here!" -if you're in England.  He was telling you that your words,

"The old joke, 'Is the pope Catholic?' -isn't a joke anymore!"  

-are words that might find their way into everyday speech, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear!  There are different ways of putting it:

"The old joke isn't a joke anymore."  Oh no?  How so?  "Is the pope Catholic?"

"When does the old joke stop being a joke?"  I don't know, when?  "When you can't ask, Is the pope Catholic, and still get a laugh."

When JPII was elected, Polish people all over the world had a great time with the old joke, "Is the Pope Polish?"  Because the answer to that question in the past had always been "No."  Now, suddenly, with the first Pole in the Chair of St. Peter, they would wait for a situation where the answer was obviously "Yes" and they would ask, "Is the Pope Polish?"  

I knew a Polish family, when their aunt was out shopping, and the question was asked, "Is Aunt Letty going to get some kielbasa?" -the answer would be, "Is the Pope Polish?" -but the person saying that would be the only one in the room who wasn't laughing!  It's funnier when you don't laugh at your own jokes.  HAHAHAHA

Then I knew another Polish family who did not appreciate this story, when I told them that I knew a Polish boy, about 7 years old, and one day I explained to him that he should wait for a time when his mother is asking him a question and the answer is obviously "yes."  I gave him an example, and he was listening intently as he understood me.  I then told him, INSTEAD of you answering her that way, don't say "yes," but instead say, "Is the Pope Polish?" -and watch what your mother does then.  About 3 weeks later, I saw him again, and he was smiling at me, so I asked him if he tried what I had told him (I didn't even have to remind him about the topic), and he said, "YES!" (He suddenly had the look on his face like, "Oh, darn, I missed another chance just now!"  I asked him if he had said, Is the Pope Polish?  He said that he did.  Then I asked him what his mother did then, and he replied, "She laughed!"  That boy is now in a master's program at a major university.

You would think a Polish family would enjoy this story.  But as I said, I knew another Polish family who did not appreciate it.  Why do you suppose that was the case?

_________________________________________________


Dear Neil Obstat,

Clearly shows that I am fallible. :pop: