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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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may I inquire further
« on: July 19, 2014, 08:01:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

    Not irrelevant. The Church does not condone protestantism. Sedevacantists have already split off into several protestant groups. Some reject certain popes and some others. Some decide to elect their own pope. Most all of them anathematize each other. The sedevacantist tree is known by its bad fruit. The devil knows that a kingdom divided cannot stand. That is why he loves sedevacantism. It weakens the Church all the more. You go from 1 schism to 20 schisms and counting.


    That is the fate of all who separate from Eternal Rome. History attests to this fact. There is no Catholicism without a visible reigning Pontiff. The sedevacantists sects are a counterfeit to which no supernatural Grace is given because they are outside the Church.  

    It is Catholic dogma that no man can be separated from the Roman Pontiff and attain salvation, and if Blessed Peter is not therein the Church is not therein. Once you cross the fine line, only schisms and divisions will follow.

    There is absolutely no precedence for abandoning the office of the papacy in the lives of the Saints or Church history; those who always did, it was always the first step on the gradual slope to heresy, schism, and Hell.

    Without fail.


    Cantarella,
    Thank you for your charitable post.  You indicate that "It is Catholic dogma that no man can be separated from the Roman Pontiff", and I agree.  

    Who is the Roman Pontiff?


    Ad Jesum per Mariam,
    Thank you for charitably addressing this most serious issue; I agree that division is contrary to Catholic Truth.  

    Who are the major 'sede vacante' and 'non sede vacante' Traditional Catholic Religious Orders? (i.e. CMRI, SSPX, FSSP, etc.)



    I would like to thank you both in advance, and I would encourage a charitable response from anyone on these two requests.

    May God bless us always.




    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline roscoe

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    may I inquire further
    « Reply #1 on: July 19, 2014, 08:34:26 PM »
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  • As the white smoke & Vatican Radio tell us, Gregory XVII was legally elected in 1958 & probably in 1963 as well. This means he is Pope until 1989 & the others are anti-popes.  :detective:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    « Reply #2 on: July 19, 2014, 10:14:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

    Not irrelevant. The Church does not condone protestantism. Sedevacantists have already split off into several protestant groups. Some reject certain popes and some others. Some decide to elect their own pope. Most all of them anathematize each other. The sedevacantist tree is known by its bad fruit. The devil knows that a kingdom divided cannot stand. That is why he loves sedevacantism. It weakens the Church all the more. You go from 1 schism to 20 schisms and counting.


    That is the fate of all who separate from Eternal Rome. History attests to this fact. There is no Catholicism without a visible reigning Pontiff. The sedevacantists sects are a counterfeit to which no supernatural Grace is given because they are outside the Church.  

    It is Catholic dogma that no man can be separated from the Roman Pontiff and attain salvation, and if Blessed Peter is not therein the Church is not therein. Once you cross the fine line, only schisms and divisions will follow.

    There is absolutely no precedence for abandoning the office of the papacy in the lives of the Saints or Church history; those who always did, it was always the first step on the gradual slope to heresy, schism, and Hell.

    Without fail.


    Cantarella,
    Thank you for your charitable post.  You indicate that "It is Catholic dogma that no man can be separated from the Roman Pontiff", and I agree.  

    Who is the Roman Pontiff?


    Ad Jesum per Mariam,
    Thank you for charitably addressing this most serious issue; I agree that division is contrary to Catholic Truth.  

    Who are the major 'sede vacante' and 'non sede vacante' Traditional Catholic Religious Orders? (i.e. CMRI, SSPX, FSSP, etc.)



    I would like to thank you both in advance, and I would encourage a charitable response from anyone on these two requests.

    May God bless us always.







    Who is the Roman Pontiff?

    Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church. So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted, and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received. (The First Vatican Council)

    Who has succeeded to the chair of Peter?

    A: Pope Francis

    A few other notable Religious organizations besides those you listed are SSPV (Sedevacantist), Institute of Christ the King (Ecclesia Dei), SSPX Marian Corp (Resistance).


    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    « Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 10:17:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    As the white smoke & Vatican Radio tell us, Gregory XVII was legally elected in 1958 & probably in 1963 as well. This means he is Pope until 1989 & the others are anti-popes.  :detective:


    You mean the one who recognized Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI as true Popes was Pope?

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 10:48:46 PM »
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  • Maybe yes... maybe no but you cannot depose him. Only a future Council with the Placet of a True Pope can do that.  :reading:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #5 on: July 19, 2014, 11:07:24 PM »
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  • When was "you cannot be separated from the papacy" officially declared a dogma.  Is it listed in Denzinger?

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    « Reply #6 on: July 19, 2014, 11:58:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    When was "you cannot be separated from the papacy" officially declared a dogma.  Is it listed in Denzinger?


    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Unam Sanctum-1302).

    I guess according to the sedevacantists someone who was born in the 1960's better hope this "interregnum" ends soon. And what of those who (of the age of reason) were born in the 1960's and have already died?

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    « Reply #7 on: July 19, 2014, 11:59:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    When was "you cannot be separated from the papacy" officially declared a dogma.  Is it listed in Denzinger?


    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Unam Sanctum-1302).

    I guess according to the sedevacantists someone who was born in the 1960's better hope this "interregnum" ends soon. And what of those who (of the age of reason) were born in the 1960's and have already died?


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 01:34:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    When was "you cannot be separated from the papacy" officially declared a dogma.  Is it listed in Denzinger?


    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Unam Sanctum-1302).


    Who is the Roman Pontiff?

    The Roman Pontiff is who was duly elected by the College of Cardinals, followed by the hierarchy of Bishops, and accepted by the Church as such.

    In current times, the visible Roman Pontiff is the Argentinian Pope Francis.

    His papacy remains valid even if he falls into "alleged" heresy. If it is a matter of Divine Law as the sedevacantists claim when they are put into a corner, then God for sure knows and such "heretic" Pope may lose his pontificate before GOD. There is NOTHING else to be said. That does not mean that the common layman has any authority to pronounce such judgment, let alone jeopardize the salvation of his own soul, merely based on his private opinion.  

    Although, Sedevacantism is a real temptation nowadays, to be a real "Traditional" Catholic is to follow the 2000 year old tradition of being loyal to the Church in union with Rome.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 01:43:39 AM »
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  • Anti-pope :reporter:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    « Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 01:49:35 AM »
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  • E rev around S :smoke-pot:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline obertray imondday

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    « Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 06:26:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    When was "you cannot be separated from the papacy" officially declared a dogma.  Is it listed in Denzinger?


    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Unam Sanctum-1302).


    Who is the Roman Pontiff?

    The Roman Pontiff is who was duly elected by the College of Cardinals, followed by the hierarchy of Bishops, and accepted by the Church as such.

    In current times, the visible Roman Pontiff is the Argentinian Pope Francis.

    His papacy remains valid even if he falls into "alleged" heresy. If it is a matter of Divine Law as the sedevacantists claim when they are put into a corner, then God for sure knows and such "heretic" Pope may lose his pontificate before GOD. There is NOTHING else to be said. That does not mean that the common layman has any authority to pronounce such judgment, let alone jeopardize the salvation of his own soul, merely based on his private opinion.  

    Although, Sedevacantism is a real temptation nowadays, to be a real "Traditional" Catholic is to follow the 2000 year old tradition of being loyal to the Church in union with Rome.



    Why do you mock your church so much and even the one who is supposed to be the head. You call  them modernists and liberals all the time. I know you are not the only one who does this, but according to your posts you seem to be the biggest double-dealer of them all. Knowmsayin?

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 07:08:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    When was "you cannot be separated from the papacy" officially declared a dogma.  Is it listed in Denzinger?


    This is so funny, FYI it is the Vatican II, leaders, followers who have separated them self from the papacy.  We know them to be schismatics.  How do you spell G R E A T   A P O S T A S Y...


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 07:41:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: obertray imondday
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    When was "you cannot be separated from the papacy" officially declared a dogma.  Is it listed in Denzinger?


    Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Unam Sanctum-1302).


    Who is the Roman Pontiff?

    The Roman Pontiff is who was duly elected by the College of Cardinals, followed by the hierarchy of Bishops, and accepted by the Church as such.

    In current times, the visible Roman Pontiff is the Argentinian Pope Francis.

    His papacy remains valid even if he falls into "alleged" heresy. If it is a matter of Divine Law as the sedevacantists claim when they are put into a corner, then God for sure knows and such "heretic" Pope may lose his pontificate before GOD. There is NOTHING else to be said. That does not mean that the common layman has any authority to pronounce such judgment, let alone jeopardize the salvation of his own soul, merely based on his private opinion.  

    Although, Sedevacantism is a real temptation nowadays, to be a real "Traditional" Catholic is to follow the 2000 year old tradition of being loyal to the Church in union with Rome.



    Why do you mock your church so much and even the one who is supposed to be the head. You call  them modernists and liberals all the time. I know you are not the only one who does this, but according to your posts you seem to be the biggest double-dealer of them all. Knowmsayin?


    It is because there is a great difference between The Church Herself and the humans that compose it. The Church hierarchy has been infiltrated by Her enemies and Vatican II was the official triumph of Modernism. There is a big difference between the Church as a Divine entity and the Church as a human society. This human society is composed of great sinners, which fall into heresy and error.

    That has nothing to do with laity declaring "sedevacancy" as a result of the hierarchy being infiltrated by Modernism because in Catholicism, there is a hierarchical order to everything and to pretend that the entire visible magisterium has failed and furthermore, that a layman can decide by himself if there is a visible reigning pope or not, is beyond ridiculous.

    Regardless of what Popes believe as private individuals or even teach publicly, Catholics must believe what has been solemnly defined in the past. There have been a few Popes who have taught or held various heresies, but as they did not attempt to pronounce them ex cathedra, infallibility is not threatened, therefore the Church as a Divine entity still does not err.

    When faced with such situations, in which the Pope falls into error / heresy, the Catholic is obliged to stick with defined dogma, even if the Pope does not appear to. We may not judge the Pope; but we are responsible before God for our own beliefs and actions. We can resist the Pontiff, but we are in no position to declare him a heretic.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 10:06:11 PM »
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  • Cantarella your explanation of apostasy here..."it is because there is a great difference between The Church Herself and the humans that compose it. The Church hierarchy has been infiltrated by Her enemies and Vatican II was the official triumph of Modernism. There is a big difference between the Church as a Divine entity and the Church as a human society. This human society is composed of great sinners, which fall into heresy and error."

    According to the Fifth Lateran Council I see a great difference between what you say and what the Church says.

    Quote
    With the advice and unanimous consent of our brothers, cardinals of the holy Roman church, by means of this our constitution which will have permanent validity, we establish, ordain, decree and define, by apostolic authority and the fulness of our power, that if it happens (which may God avert in his mercy and goodness towards all), after God has released us or our successors from the government of the universal church, that by the efforts of the enemy of the human race and following the urge of ambition or greed, the election of the Roman pontiff is made or effected by the person who is elected, or by one or several members of the college of cardinals, giving their votes in a manner that in any way involves simony being committed -- by the gift, promise or receipt of money, goods of any sort, castles, offices, benefices, promises or obligations -- by the person elected or by one or several other persons, in any manner or form whatsoever, even if the election resulted in a majority of two-thirds or in the unanimous choice of all the cardinals, or even in a spontaneous agreement on the part of all, without a scrutiny being made, then not only is this election or choice itself null, and does not bestow on the person elected or chosen in this fashion any right of either spiritual or temporal administration, but also there can be alleged and presented, against the person elected or chosen in this manner, by any one of the cardinals who has taken part in the election, the charge of simony, as a true and unquestionable heresy, so that the one elected is not regarded by anyone as the Roman pontiff.


    simony in the election of a pope invalidates the election (law of Julius II, 1503)
    Simony can be in the gaining of money or power.  

    Quote
    A further consequence is that the person elected in this manner is automatically deprived, without the need of any other declaration, of his cardinal's rank and of all other honours whatsoever as well as of cathedral churches, even metropolitan and patriarchical ones, monasteries, dignities and all other benefices and pensions of whatever kind which he was then holding by title or in commendam or otherwise; and that the elected person is to be regarded as, and is in fact, not a follower of the apostles but an apostate and, like Simon, a magicianl and a heresiarch, and perpetually debarred from each and all of the above-mentioned things. A simoniacal election of this kind is never at any time to be made valid by a subsequent enthronement or the passage of time, or even by the act of adoration or obedience of all the cardinals. It shall be lawful for each and all of the cardinals, even those who consented to the simoniacal election or promotion, even after the enthronement and adoration or obedience, as well as for all the clergy and the Roman people, together with those serving as prefects, castellans, captains and other officials at the Castel Sant' Angelo in Rome and any other strongholds of the Roman church, notwithstanding any submission or oath or pledge given, to withdraw without penalty and at any time from obedience and loyalty to the person so elected even if he has been enthroned (while they themselves, notwithstanding this, remain fully committed to the faith of the Roman church and to obedience towards a future Roman pontiff entering office in accordance with the canons) and to avoid him as a magician, a heathen, a publican and a heresiarch. To discomfort him still further, if he uses the pretext of the election to interfere in the government of the universal church, the cardinals who wish to oppose the aforesaid election can ask for the help of the secular arm against him.

     

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