Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: curiouscatholic23 on October 17, 2011, 01:11:06 PM
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Im really struggling with these issues and I do not know who to turn to because I get conflicting answers. Correct me if Im wrong in these assertions.
For example CMRI believes in BOD and NFP and they say I can go to SSPX.
SSPV says yes to BOD, NFP, and una cuм masses, but no to CMRI.
Bp. Sanborn says yes to BOD, NFP, CMRI, but no to SSPX masses.
MHFM says no to BOD, NFP, but yes to SSPX and even EC in communion with Rome.
Talk about confusion lol. Reminds me of when I had to cram for a chemistry test.
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You are at least correct for the upper three (I don´t know too much about MHFM´s position). But keep in mind that SSPV says "no" to CMRI and other Thuc-line bishops/priests because of the question of validity, while Bp. Sanborn does not want you to go the SSPX or any other "una cuм" Mass because of the insertion of the Vatican-II popes into the Canon of the Mass.
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Simply looking at your list there, it seems like if you ignored MHFM, you'd be significantly less confused. What makes you think they are a reliable source in the first place? The others are priests, but I thought MHFM was a couple of laymen.
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Simply looking at your list there, it seems like if you ignored MHFM, you'd be significantly less confused. What makes you think they are a reliable source in the first place? The others are priests, but I thought MHFM was a couple of laymen.
I respect the opinion of MHFM for a few reasons:
-They do a great job articulating the sedevacantist position
-They make excellent videos
-They tell it like it is
-They really don't care what anybody else thinks
-They do their own research
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I've personally never read/watched much from MHFM, but the impression I get from the multitude of comments on this board is that they're a case of "take the good and leave the bad". I'm sure they provide some good facts, but I wouldn't just go with their conclusion on anything. Decide for yourself and consider that if you submit yourself to the guidance of a solid priest and he leads you astray, your much less culpable than if you follow a couple of laymen and they lead you astray.
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Friends, EVERYONE'S websites are cases of 'take the good, leave the bad', except where they simply provide and support the teachings of the Church. Period.
There IS no confusion when you stop asking, 'which sede or other trad group is better than the others', and simply ask, 'who is faithful to the Magisterium and the Traditions we have received from Christ and the Apostles?'.
MHFM, SSPV and all the rest can safely be said to be traditional. You know what the Mass is; don't GO to bastardized Roncalli '62 services, or 'una cuм' services that include anti-popes. Simple.
Don't attend the services of people who are in full and free communion with Rome. The SSPX, based on their track record, are probably safe for the time being; I believe each church or chapel will have to be judged on its own merits for now until this 'preamble' nonsense is finalized. It will remain to be seen whether the SSPX as an organization will remain a valid choice for Catholics.
Honestly... just ask yourself what the Church teaches, and lay off all the secondary, maybe/possibly stuff. You'll be much safer when you simply ask the Church Fathers and the successors of the Apostles what THEY thought through their writings rather than grasping at doctrinal straws like the Protestants and the Conciliar heretics do.
As I have said plenty of times before, BOD and BOB are teachings of the Church, but there is no sense in trying to figure out EXACTLY what circuмstances would cause those teachings to be applicable. It is much safer to do what Our Lord said when St. Peter asked what was going to happen to the Apostle John: "What does that have to do with you? You follow ME."
It will get a LOT easier for traditional Catholics if we all just keep concentrating on the things that have ALWAYS mattered, like prayer, the Rosary, the Mass and works of mercy. Diving into all these minutiae and bickering and sniping is certainly not leading anyone to any greater sanctity.
My vote is to stick with the Fathers, the Doctors, the Saints and the Popes. I have this feeling that Our Lord wants it that way.
St. John Vianney, patron of faithful priests, pray for us.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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CC:
I respect the opinion of MHFM for a few reasons:
-They do a great job articulating the sedevacantist position
-They make excellent videos
-They tell it like it is
-They really don't care what anybody else thinks
-They do their own research
-They do a great job articulating the sedevacantist position
No they don't.
-They make excellent videos
Then maybe we should make our decisions based on MTV?
-They tell it like it is
You'd have to buy into 1 and 2 before you'd be ready to make this statement.
-They really don't care what anybody else thinks
Not the way I would choose to decide on whom I would admire.
-They do their own research
Wouldn't it better if they relied on the Church's teachings? Luther did his own research.
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Friends, EVERYONE'S websites are cases of 'take the good, leave the bad', except where they simply provide and support the teachings of the Church. Period.
There IS no confusion when you stop asking, 'which sede or other trad group is better than the others', and simply ask, 'who is faithful to the Magisterium and the Traditions we have received from Christ and the Apostles?'.
MHFM, SSPV and all the rest can safely be said to be traditional. You know what the Mass is; don't GO to bastardized Roncalli '62 services, or 'una cuм' services that include anti-popes. Simple.
Don't attend the services of people who are in full and free communion with Rome. The SSPX, based on their track record, are probably safe for the time being; I believe each church or chapel will have to be judged on its own merits for now until this 'preamble' nonsense is finalized. It will remain to be seen whether the SSPX as an organization will remain a valid choice for Catholics.
Honestly... just ask yourself what the Church teaches, and lay off all the secondary, maybe/possibly stuff. You'll be much safer when you simply ask the Church Fathers and the successors of the Apostles what THEY thought through their writings rather than grasping at doctrinal straws like the Protestants and the Conciliar heretics do.
As I have said plenty of times before, BOD and BOB are teachings of the Church, but there is no sense in trying to figure out EXACTLY what circuмstances would cause those teachings to be applicable. It is much safer to do what Our Lord said when St. Peter asked what was going to happen to the Apostle John: "What does that have to do with you? You follow ME."
It will get a LOT easier for traditional Catholics if we all just keep concentrating on the things that have ALWAYS mattered, like prayer, the Rosary, the Mass and works of mercy. Diving into all these minutiae and bickering and sniping is certainly not leading anyone to any greater sanctity.
My vote is to stick with the Fathers, the Doctors, the Saints and the Popes. I have this feeling that Our Lord wants it that way.
St. John Vianney, patron of faithful priests, pray for us.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
For a lot of Trads that don't want to go to a New Church affiliated Mass (FSSP, ICK, etc.) it comes down to what is available to you within a reasonable traveling distance. I am fortunate to be within driving distance (a little over an hour one way) to a Sede Chapel affiliated with one of the above mentioned groups, but if I was not, I would probably be going to an SSPX Church.
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Friends, EVERYONE'S websites are cases of 'take the good, leave the bad', except where they simply provide and support the teachings of the Church. Period.
There IS no confusion when you stop asking, 'which sede or other trad group is better than the others', and simply ask, 'who is faithful to the Magisterium and the Traditions we have received from Christ and the Apostles?'.
MHFM, SSPV and all the rest can safely be said to be traditional. You know what the Mass is; don't GO to bastardized Roncalli '62 services, or 'una cuм' services that include anti-popes. Simple.
Don't attend the services of people who are in full and free communion with Rome. The SSPX, based on their track record, are probably safe for the time being; I believe each church or chapel will have to be judged on its own merits for now until this 'preamble' nonsense is finalized. It will remain to be seen whether the SSPX as an organization will remain a valid choice for Catholics.
Honestly... just ask yourself what the Church teaches, and lay off all the secondary, maybe/possibly stuff. You'll be much safer when you simply ask the Church Fathers and the successors of the Apostles what THEY thought through their writings rather than grasping at doctrinal straws like the Protestants and the Conciliar heretics do.
As I have said plenty of times before, BOD and BOB are teachings of the Church, but there is no sense in trying to figure out EXACTLY what circuмstances would cause those teachings to be applicable. It is much safer to do what Our Lord said when St. Peter asked what was going to happen to the Apostle John: "What does that have to do with you? You follow ME."
It will get a LOT easier for traditional Catholics if we all just keep concentrating on the things that have ALWAYS mattered, like prayer, the Rosary, the Mass and works of mercy. Diving into all these minutiae and bickering and sniping is certainly not leading anyone to any greater sanctity.
My vote is to stick with the Fathers, the Doctors, the Saints and the Popes. I have this feeling that Our Lord wants it that way.
St. John Vianney, patron of faithful priests, pray for us.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
It sounds like you just contradicted yourself. You said avoid the Roncalli '62 Mass, but then you said the SSPX was ok. Well that makes no sense because the SSPX uses the Roncalli '62 missal.
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MHFM doesn't say "yes" to the SSPX, they say that you can attend but you can't put money in their plate otherwise they say you're a heretic for giving money to heretics. So techinally they say "no" to the Society. The Dimonds support being a home-aloner, meaning that you have access to a TLM but refuse to attend because you don't agree with the views of those celebrating the Mass.
And I agree with Mater. Yes the Dimonds have some good arguments and materials on their web-site, but you can't base your position entirely on what a couple of laypeople who condemn practically everyone but themselves say.
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I think MHFM is a source of great information and spiritual help to all. I would NOT have been a traditional Catholic at all as well if not for them. I would not have known anything about Vatican II specifically or the changing of the rites for sacraments. There is much I owe them, and I have done plenty of rosaries for their cause and community.
BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.
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BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.
Hey Bud-
I understand how MHFM is a source of inspiration to those who consider tradition. Even I was exposed to them through one of their videos. So Iknow where you're coming from. That being said, if everyone were to take the advise of MHFM then, while recognizing that they do good WITH bad, they would need to stop attending their services. I mean, and you said it, think of how dangerous being a Home Aloner is...
What's great is you show your saintliness by doing what they fail to do- you pray for them. I don't know that I see many videos of theirs suggesting this for those 'groups' outside their own...
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Sorry- I re read my post. Full of mistakes, but I think you get the gist... :wink:
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BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.
Hey Bud-
I understand how MHFM is a source of inspiration to those who consider tradition. Even I was exposed to them through one of their videos. So Iknow where you're coming from. That being said, if everyone were to take the advise of MHFM then, while recognizing that they do good WITH bad, they would need to stop attending their services. I mean, and you said it, think of how dangerous being a Home Aloner is...
What's great is you show your saintliness by doing what they fail to do- you pray for them. I don't know that I see many videos of theirs suggesting this for those 'groups' outside their own...
s2srea, you make a valid point and something that I do agree with. Taking the MHFM stance to their conclusion would separate you from nearly everyone out there including every other traditional Catholic. The remnant is only MHFM? No emotions here, just thinking out loud but I do not think that is possible at all. Are all the Thuc line bishops and sacraments invalid because a few people conjectured and theorized that he was insane and unfit to transfer orders? Are the ABL line invalid because ABL never outright came to the sedevacantist conclusion, or if he did , he shied back to somewhere closer to the Conciliar Church? NO. A valid sacrament is a valid sacrament, in my humble estimation, and wherever you can find this is where you will find God and you will be nourished for the time being.
Thank you for your compliment, but I am so far from sainthood and I wonder if God even wants me to become a saint for him? Grandiose thoughts of red martyrdom , dieing in battle with a rosary in hand and crucifix in the other, fighting the NWO... these flow through my head. Yet it is most likely pride and anger mixing all together. Or is it...
May the Lord keep you , s2rea, and Mary our Mother cover you in her mantle always.
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First, I want to make a correction: it was pointed out that I said not to attend a Roncalli '62 Mass, then I said to attend SSPX Masses. I apologize for my oversight. Indeed, the SSPX (for now) is probably safe, although they DO use the '62 Missal. That said, I would rather have a '62 Missal in the hands of someone trained and ordained by Abp. Lefebvre than a totally untouched Missal in the hands of someone who was validly ordained but offers the NO service. Yecch.
I wanted to post just to encourage you all... soon, sooner than later, I believe, all these things will be sorted and put right. Our Lord's Church will not always have this turmoil, even though He said we would always have tribulation. Our Lady will NEVER, EVER fail to comfort Her children when they look to Her as their precious Mother.
We speak of sainthood; God is calling ALL of us to sanctity. There is no question about that. With that in mind, please remember that Jesus did not RUN to the Cross on the first day after He was baptized. He prayed, and learned from His Father's Will the obedience that was necessary for Him to be our pure and holy Example. As we study theology, we must pray the Rosary as well. As we debate with those who would defame the Church, we must hear Mass in the state of grace as often as we can. As we instruct the ignorant, we must keep ourselves 'from being defiled by the world', as the Apostle St. James said in Holy Scripture.
Remember what Our Lord said? "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.[/color]"
Then take to heart what Our Lady said to the children at Fatima: "In the end, My Immaculate Heart WILL triumph.[/color]"
Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, pray for us.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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The Dimond brothers of MHFM have exhibited some really sleazy behavior. They funded their operation by talking some poor young Catholic man out of his large inheritance under the pretext of making him a Benedictine monk when they're not even actual Benedictines themselves! The Four Marks newspaper reported on the matter in a front page article titled "Dimond Theives" a while back after the Dimonds got sued by their victim.
Plus they deny BOD even though the true Popes supported it, and they believe that Siri was a duly elected pope, which is a lot of nonsense. So you have to take anything they say with a kilo of salt and watch your pocketbook carefully when dealing with them!
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The Dimond brothers of MHFM have exhibited some really sleazy behavior. They funded their operation by talking some poor young Catholic man out of his large inheritance under the pretext of making him a Benedictine monk when they're not even actual Benedictines themselves! The Four Marks newspaper reported on the matter in a front page article titled "Dimond Theives" a while back after the Dimonds got sued by their victim.
Plus they deny BOD even though the true Popes supported it, and they believe that Siri was a duly elected pope, which is a lot of nonsense. So you have to take anything they say with a kilo of salt and watch your pocketbook carefully when dealing with them!
When I watch their vidoes I come under a deep spiritual experience. I become very intense about the faith. Its hard to explain. Especially their videos "Why JP2 was the antichrist" and also "Death and Journey into Hel."
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Im really struggling with these issues and I do not know who to turn to because I get conflicting answers. Correct me if Im wrong in these assertions.
For example CMRI believes in BOD and NFP and they say I can go to SSPX.
SSPV says yes to BOD, NFP, and una cuм masses, but no to CMRI.
Bp. Sanborn says yes to BOD, NFP, CMRI, but no to SSPX masses.
MHFM says no to BOD, NFP, but yes to SSPX and even EC in communion with Rome.
Talk about confusion lol. Reminds me of when I had to cram for a chemistry test.
These "confusions" are relatively small when compared to the confusions we find in the Conciliar church. In sedevacantist circles, the confusion is in very fine points of doctrine on a few specific issues. In non-sedevacantist circles, the confusion is in every single aspect of spiritual and liturgical life as well as in every aspect of the administration of their church.
Perhaps it is true that sedevacantists disagree in their understanding of BOD and NFP. But it is without doubt that non-sedevacantists believe that there are no truly binding doctrines for modern ecuмenism is clearly the foundational dogma of that religion. Even then, some of them reject this (the SSPX) and others pretend it doesn't exist (FSSP and others) while their leader(Bendict XVI) and others go all out to bring both heretics, schismatics, pagans, Jews, and even athiests together to pray to Satan for peace to the accolades of the world community and Conciliar catholics alike because, for them, it doesn't matter one iota what one believes or does as long as we all get along.
And we complain about confusion over small points of doctrine among actual Catholics?
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The Dimond brothers of MHFM have exhibited some really sleazy behavior. They funded their operation by talking some poor young Catholic man out of his large inheritance under the pretext of making him a Benedictine monk when they're not even actual Benedictines themselves! The Four Marks newspaper reported on the matter in a front page article titled "Dimond Theives" a while back after the Dimonds got sued by their victim.
Plus they deny BOD even though the true Popes supported it, and they believe that Siri was a duly elected pope, which is a lot of nonsense. So you have to take anything they say with a kilo of salt and watch your pocketbook carefully when dealing with them!
When I watch their vidoes I come under a deep spiritual experience. I become very intense about the faith. Its hard to explain. Especially their videos "Why JP2 was the antichrist" and also "Death and Journey into Hel."
Their claim that JPII was the antichrist is quite a ridiculous thing to believe, given that Scripture and Prophecy both tell us otherwise.
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I just find it incredibly bizarre that I live in a major East Coast city, in a section of that city with a very large Catholic population, yet the closest SSPX Mass is over an hr away, and the closest sede Mass is 2-3 hrs away. Not knowing how to drive or having a car makes it only worse.
I DO have a Diocesan TLM 15 mins away by bus, and another Diocesan TLM 45 mins away by bus but of course I won't go there.
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Im really struggling with these issues and I do not know who to turn to because I get conflicting answers. Correct me if Im wrong in these assertions.
For example CMRI believes in BOD and NFP and they say I can go to SSPX.
SSPV says yes to BOD, NFP, and una cuм masses, but no to CMRI.
Bp. Sanborn says yes to BOD, NFP, CMRI, but no to SSPX masses.
MHFM says no to BOD, NFP, but yes to SSPX and even EC in communion with Rome.
Talk about confusion lol. Reminds me of when I had to cram for a chemistry test.
What you've just described is a textbook example of Protestantism. Each of these sects uses private judgment to make contradictory claims. They can't all be right. Who is right?
This is what happens when one separates oneself from Rome and the Roman Pontiff. At least the SSPX recognizes the authority of the Pope in principle.
This discovery should set off a lightbulb in your head to avoid all of these groups like the plague.
The Catholic Church is ONE, not legion like the demons. The Catholic Church has one head and one authority, not 5 conflicting irregular Bishops condemning each other. Stick with the Pope and stick with the Church and you'll be ok.
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I just find it incredibly bizarre that I live in a major East Coast city, in a section of that city with a very large Catholic population, yet the closest SSPX Mass is over an hr away, and the closest sede Mass is 2-3 hrs away. Not knowing how to drive or having a car makes it only worse.
I DO have a Diocesan TLM 15 mins away by bus, and another Diocesan TLM 45 mins away by bus but of course I won't go there.
You have a diocesan TLM 15 minutes away and you choose to miss Mass altogether rather than going to it? How is this not schismatic?
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Santo- What do you think about "Assisi 3" on October 27? Do you think its an act of scandal and apostasy to pray with pagans?
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Santo Subito said:
You have a diocesan TLM 15 minutes away and you choose to miss Mass altogether rather than going to it? How is this not schismatic?
Someone who cavalierly overlooks the heretical words and apostate acts of the current "Pope," if not defending them outright, had better be real careful flinging around words like "schismatic." As ye judge, so shall ye be judged.
Because of the New rite of Consecration which I believe is invalid, but which is at the very least doubtful, the priests are all doubtful and Catholics should not attend their "Masses." Catholics should not attend any Mass that is doubtful, that is my understanding.
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I just find it incredibly bizarre that I live in a major East Coast city, in a section of that city with a very large Catholic population, yet the closest SSPX Mass is over an hr away, and the closest sede Mass is 2-3 hrs away. Not knowing how to drive or having a car makes it only worse.
I DO have a Diocesan TLM 15 mins away by bus, and another Diocesan TLM 45 mins away by bus but of course I won't go there.
I do not find this bizarre at all. I don't presently live in a city but I have lived in cities in the past. And though there are often large populations of self-professed Catholics in those cities, there are often very few people who actually believe and practice the Catholic Faith. Furthermore, the costs of operating a truly Catholic church inside a city is often too great for the small group of believing and practicing Catholics who are not fooled by Conciliar catholic heresies and sacriliges to support. Thus, traditional Catholic communities who must keep an arm's length away from Conciliar authorities must establish their chapels in the suburbs and away from the urban cities.
I would stay away from the diocesan TLM also, for two reasons:
1. The fact that I consider the orders of most diocesan priests to be doubtful due to the changes in the Rite of Orders in the late 1960s; and
2. The fact that the Official policy of the Conciliar church is that the TLM is permitted only on the condition that the priests and the faithful cannot refuse the Novus Ordo as a matter of principle. To attend even the diocesan TLM one makes public testimony that the Novus Ordo is holy and pleasing to God as a matter of principle whether one intends to do so or not. I cannot do that and will not attend any traditional Mass that is offered through the diocese.
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Santo- What do you think about "Assisi 3" on October 27? Do you think its an act of scandal and apostasy to pray with pagans?
Read the news reports. There will be no inter religious prayer at Assisi III.
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Yet people of all religions will be there and their false religions will be respected...
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Santo Subito said:
You have a diocesan TLM 15 minutes away and you choose to miss Mass altogether rather than going to it? How is this not schismatic?
Someone who cavalierly overlooks the heretical words and apostate acts of the current "Pope," if not defending them outright, had better be real careful flinging around words like "schismatic." As ye judge, so shall ye be judged.
Because of the New rite of Consecration which I believe is invalid, but which is at the very least doubtful, the priests are all doubtful and Catholics should not attend their "Masses." Catholics should not attend any Mass that is doubtful, that is my understanding.
A schismatic is one who refuses to recognize the authority of the Pope and/or refuses communion with him. Here we have, presumedly, a baptized Catholic choosing not to fulfill their Sunday obligation at all rather than attend a Diocesan TLM. How does this not fit the definition of schismatic?
You have no more ability, much less authority, to pass judgment on the validity of an approved form of consecration than Luther had. Christ founded His Church precisely so that we would have certainty on these matters; not fumbling around like Prots trying to sort everything out ourselves. If the Church cannot be trusted to guarantee valid sacraments then it has failed.
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Yet people of all religions will be there and their false religions will be respected...
The individuals there and their free will and conscience will be respected. Their false religions will not be respected in the sense of revered or given special importance by the Catholic authorities. People of other faiths worshipping in their faith will be tolerated just as false religions have been tolerated by Catholic states through history.
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But the Church also teaches conversion. The Church has also never taught that we must respect people of other religions and their false relgions. As an example, look at the docuмents from the First Vatican Council:
If anyone says that
all miracles are impossible, and that therefore
all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that
miracles can never be known with certainty,
nor can the divine origin of the christian religion be proved from them:
let him be anathema.
Therefore,
if anyone says that
blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole church militant; or that
it was a primacy of honour only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself:
let him be anathema.
So we see that both atheists and Protestants are condemned. They need to be converted, not encouraged to remain in their error and sin.
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I think MHFM is a source of great information and spiritual help to all. I would NOT have been a traditional Catholic at all as well if not for them. I would not have known anything about Vatican II specifically or the changing of the rites for sacraments. There is much I owe them, and I have done plenty of rosaries for their cause and community.
BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.
Oh my goodness. This post reflect my experience and thoughts precisely!
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Im really struggling with these issues and I do not know who to turn to because I get conflicting answers. Correct me if Im wrong in these assertions.
For example CMRI believes in BOD and NFP and they say I can go to SSPX.
SSPV says yes to BOD, NFP, and una cuм masses, but no to CMRI.
Bp. Sanborn says yes to BOD, NFP, CMRI, but no to SSPX masses.
MHFM says no to BOD, NFP, but yes to SSPX and even EC in communion with Rome.
Talk about confusion lol. Reminds me of when I had to cram for a chemistry test.
These "confusions" are relatively small when compared to the confusions we find in the Conciliar church. In sedevacantist circles, the confusion is in very fine points of doctrine on a few specific issues. In non-sedevacantist circles, the confusion is in every single aspect of spiritual and liturgical life as well as in every aspect of the administration of their church.
Perhaps it is true that sedevacantists disagree in their understanding of BOD and NFP. But it is without doubt that non-sedevacantists believe that there are no truly binding doctrines for modern ecuмenism is clearly the foundational dogma of that religion. Even then, some of them reject this (the SSPX) and others pretend it doesn't exist (FSSP and others) while their leader(Bendict XVI) and others go all out to bring both heretics, schismatics, pagans, Jews, and even athiests together to pray to Satan for peace to the accolades of the world community and Conciliar catholics alike because, for them, it doesn't matter one iota what one believes or does as long as we all get along.
And we complain about confusion over small points of doctrine among actual Catholics?
Note the bolded text.
:applause:
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I think MHFM is a source of great information and spiritual help to all. I would NOT have been a traditional Catholic at all as well if not for them. I would not have known anything about Vatican II specifically or the changing of the rites for sacraments. There is much I owe them, and I have done plenty of rosaries for their cause and community.
BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.
Oh my goodness. This post reflect my experience and thoughts precisely!
Interesting .. I'll have you in my prayers, brother. May God help you on your journey to that 'better home' as well.
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But the Church also teaches conversion. The Church has also never taught that we must respect people of other religions and their false relgions.
The Church has always taught we respect individuals of other religions and treat them with charity. You are correct in that the Church has never taught we need to "respect" other religions in the sense that we put them on an equal level with the true religion. We can respect that they are sincere and we can recognize the elements of truth in these religions, but objectively we can never say they are in any way equal to the Catholic Faith.
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These "confusions" are relatively small when compared to the confusions we find in the Conciliar church. In sedevacantist circles, the confusion is in very fine points of doctrine on a few specific issues.
I don't think this is the case. Many of these Sede groups caution that if you do the things they preach as wrong, whether it be believing in BOD, practicing NFP, assisting at una cuм Masses, you may be placing your very soul in danger. Of course, the fact that they are wrong and have absolutely no authority to make such judgments is another matter.
In non-sedevacantist circles, the confusion is in every single aspect of spiritual and liturgical life as well as in every aspect of the administration of their church.
While I admit that dissident priests, theologians, laity, bishops are allowed to exist in the Church spewing their nonsense, this is different from confusion coming from the Pope. There are a group of true Catholics (not de facto schismatics) in the Roman Church who do recognize the legitimate teachings and practices of Rome and with them there is no confusion. It is simple. You follow Canon Law, Catechism, rubrics, etc.
Perhaps it is true that sedevacantists disagree in their understanding of BOD and NFP. But it is without doubt that non-sedevacantists believe that there are no truly binding doctrines for modern ecuмenism is clearly the foundational dogma of that religion. Even then, some of them reject this (the SSPX) and others pretend it doesn't exist (FSSP and others) while their leader(Bendict XVI) and others go all out to bring both heretics, schismatics, pagans, Jews, and even athiests together to pray to Satan for peace to the accolades of the world community and Conciliar catholics alike because, for them, it doesn't matter one iota what one believes or does as long as we all get along.
This is a vast over-generalization, caricature, and hyperbole. I am a non-sedevacantist and I definitely believe in binding doctrine. Modern ecuмenism is not the foundational dogma of my religion or even a dogma, period. The Pope is not setting out to pray to Satan with members of other religions! This is absurd. The Pope is calling people of other Faiths to come together to pray (separately) for peace and to dialogue with each other. Would you rather the Pope declare war on all of these people and start bloody persecutions of Catholics by Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus around the world? Do you think this would help them convert? Or might seeing Catholicism, virtue, and charity in action at Assisi inspire some of them to convert?
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But the Church also teaches conversion. The Church has also never taught that we must respect people of other religions and their false relgions.
The Church has always taught we respect individuals of other religions and treat them with charity. You are correct in that the Church has never taught we need to "respect" other religions in the sense that we put them on an equal level with the true religion. We can respect that they are sincere and we can recognize the elements of truth in these religions, but objectively we can never say they are in any way equal to the Catholic Faith.
Yes, you and I are mostly in agreement here. However, whether they realize it or not, the Vatican is implying that all religions are equal by not even attempting to convert them. You have a point that charity and virtue makes them think more highly of us, but it also encourages them to remain in their faith. We can speak the truth in a loving way, and I haven't seen much truth-speaking since Vatican II. That was my point.
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Honestly Subito, unless the Pope does like St. Francis and challenges them all to walk through fire with him and let God decide whose Religion is the True Religion, then I don't see any converting going to take place in a bunch of noise.
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In regards to Assisi III, ManofGosh is right. I doubt any converting will take place when you have numerous religions all praying together. Whatever happened to ecuмenism of return?
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The only proper action for a true Roman Pontiff in the midst of an assembly of pagans and infidels is for him to publicly and unashamedly proclaim the unique and exclusive truth of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is to say that he should warn those in attendance that they are in danger of Hell.
NOT to do so, especially when these other representatives are not attending as private citizens but as AGENTS of their religions, is to encourage them to remain as they are, which is a mortal sin.
St. John the Baptizer, preacher of righteousness and of Christ, pray for us.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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But the Church also teaches conversion. The Church has also never taught that we must respect people of other religions and their false relgions.
The Church has always taught we respect individuals of other religions and treat them with charity. You are correct in that the Church has never taught we need to "respect" other religions in the sense that we put them on an equal level with the true religion. We can respect that they are sincere and we can recognize the elements of truth in these religions, but objectively we can never say they are in any way equal to the Catholic Faith.
Any elements of truth in these religions exists in the Catholic church and deserves no special recognition; For "their" truth is not unique: truth is one. This truth exists in the Catholic Church ALONE. All others posses not parts of the truth, but distortions and fragmentation and error.
None of that is worthy of respect. Any "good" in these religions belongs to the Catholic church alone by divine right.