Author Topic: MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION  (Read 4237 times)

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Offline curiouscatholic23

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MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
« on: October 17, 2011, 01:11:06 PM »
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  • Im really struggling with these issues and I do not know who to turn to because I get conflicting answers. Correct me if Im wrong in these assertions.

    For example CMRI believes in BOD and NFP and they say I can go to SSPX.

    SSPV says yes to BOD, NFP, and una cum masses, but no to CMRI.

    Bp. Sanborn says yes to BOD, NFP, CMRI, but no to SSPX masses.

    MHFM says no to BOD, NFP, but yes to SSPX and even EC in communion with Rome.

    Talk about confusion lol. Reminds me of when I had to cram for a chemistry test.

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #1 on: October 17, 2011, 01:20:56 PM »
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  • You are at least correct for the upper three (I don´t know too much about MHFM´s position). But keep in mind that SSPV says "no" to CMRI and other Thuc-line bishops/priests because of the question of validity, while Bp. Sanborn does not want you to go the SSPX or any other "una cum" Mass because of the insertion of the Vatican-II popes into the Canon of the Mass.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus


    Offline MaterDominici

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #2 on: October 17, 2011, 01:33:45 PM »
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  • Simply looking at your list there, it seems like if you ignored MHFM, you'd be significantly less confused. What makes you think they are a reliable source in the first place? The others are priests, but I thought MHFM was a couple of laymen.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #3 on: October 17, 2011, 02:09:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Simply looking at your list there, it seems like if you ignored MHFM, you'd be significantly less confused. What makes you think they are a reliable source in the first place? The others are priests, but I thought MHFM was a couple of laymen.


    I respect the opinion of MHFM for a few reasons:

    -They do a great job articulating the sedevacantist position
    -They make excellent videos
    -They tell it like it is
    -They really don't care what anybody else thinks
    -They do their own research

    Offline MaterDominici

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #4 on: October 17, 2011, 02:23:36 PM »
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  • I've personally never read/watched much from MHFM, but the impression I get from the multitude of comments on this board is that they're a case of "take the good and leave the bad". I'm sure they provide some good facts, but I wouldn't just go with their conclusion on anything. Decide for yourself and consider that if you submit yourself to the guidance of a solid priest and he leads you astray, your much less culpable than if you follow a couple of laymen and they lead you astray.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...


    Offline Stephen Francis

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #5 on: October 17, 2011, 02:54:26 PM »
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  • Friends, EVERYONE'S websites are cases of 'take the good, leave the bad', except where they simply provide and support the teachings of the Church. Period.

    There IS no confusion when you stop asking, 'which sede or other trad group is better than the others', and simply ask, 'who is faithful to the Magisterium and the Traditions we have received from Christ and the Apostles?'.

    MHFM, SSPV and all the rest can safely be said to be traditional. You know what the Mass is; don't GO to bastardized Roncalli '62 services, or 'una cum' services that include anti-popes. Simple.

    Don't attend the services of people who are in full and free communion with Rome. The SSPX, based on their track record, are probably safe for the time being; I believe each church or chapel will have to be judged on its own merits for now until this 'preamble' nonsense is finalized. It will remain to be seen whether the SSPX as an organization will remain a valid choice for Catholics.

    Honestly... just ask yourself what the Church teaches, and lay off all the secondary, maybe/possibly stuff. You'll be much safer when you simply ask the Church Fathers and the successors of the Apostles what THEY thought through their writings rather than grasping at doctrinal straws like the Protestants and the Conciliar heretics do.

    As I have said plenty of times before, BOD and BOB are teachings of the Church, but there is no sense in trying to figure out EXACTLY what circumstances would cause those teachings to be applicable. It is much safer to do what Our Lord said when St. Peter asked what was going to happen to the Apostle John: "What does that have to do with you? You follow ME."

    It will get a LOT easier for traditional Catholics if we all just keep concentrating on the things that have ALWAYS mattered, like prayer, the Rosary, the Mass and works of mercy. Diving into all these minutiae and bickering and sniping is certainly not leading anyone to any greater sanctity.

    My vote is to stick with the Fathers, the Doctors, the Saints and the Popes. I have this feeling that Our Lord wants it that way.

    St. John Vianney, patron of faithful priests, pray for us.

    Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar

    Offline Lighthouse

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #6 on: October 17, 2011, 03:09:14 PM »
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  • CC:
    Quote
    I respect the opinion of MHFM for a few reasons:

    -They do a great job articulating the sedevacantist position
    -They make excellent videos
    -They tell it like it is
    -They really don't care what anybody else thinks
    -They do their own research




    -They do a great job articulating the sedevacantist position

    No they don't.

    -They make excellent videos

    Then maybe we should make our decisions based on MTV?

    -They tell it like it is

    You'd have to buy into 1 and 2 before you'd be ready to make this statement.

    -They really don't care what anybody else thinks
    Not the way I would choose to decide on whom I would admire.

    -They do their own research
    Wouldn't it better if they relied on the Church's teachings? Luther did his own research.

    Offline Mysterium Fidei

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #7 on: October 17, 2011, 03:21:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stephen Francis
    Friends, EVERYONE'S websites are cases of 'take the good, leave the bad', except where they simply provide and support the teachings of the Church. Period.

    There IS no confusion when you stop asking, 'which sede or other trad group is better than the others', and simply ask, 'who is faithful to the Magisterium and the Traditions we have received from Christ and the Apostles?'.

    MHFM, SSPV and all the rest can safely be said to be traditional. You know what the Mass is; don't GO to bastardized Roncalli '62 services, or 'una cum' services that include anti-popes. Simple.

    Don't attend the services of people who are in full and free communion with Rome. The SSPX, based on their track record, are probably safe for the time being; I believe each church or chapel will have to be judged on its own merits for now until this 'preamble' nonsense is finalized. It will remain to be seen whether the SSPX as an organization will remain a valid choice for Catholics.

    Honestly... just ask yourself what the Church teaches, and lay off all the secondary, maybe/possibly stuff. You'll be much safer when you simply ask the Church Fathers and the successors of the Apostles what THEY thought through their writings rather than grasping at doctrinal straws like the Protestants and the Conciliar heretics do.

    As I have said plenty of times before, BOD and BOB are teachings of the Church, but there is no sense in trying to figure out EXACTLY what circumstances would cause those teachings to be applicable. It is much safer to do what Our Lord said when St. Peter asked what was going to happen to the Apostle John: "What does that have to do with you? You follow ME."

    It will get a LOT easier for traditional Catholics if we all just keep concentrating on the things that have ALWAYS mattered, like prayer, the Rosary, the Mass and works of mercy. Diving into all these minutiae and bickering and sniping is certainly not leading anyone to any greater sanctity.

    My vote is to stick with the Fathers, the Doctors, the Saints and the Popes. I have this feeling that Our Lord wants it that way.

    St. John Vianney, patron of faithful priests, pray for us.

    Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.


    For a lot of Trads that don't want to go to a New Church affiliated Mass (FSSP, ICK, etc.) it comes down to what is available to you within a reasonable traveling distance. I am fortunate to be within driving distance (a little over an hour one way) to a Sede Chapel affiliated with one of the above mentioned groups, but if I was not, I would probably be going to an SSPX Church.
    Dim drums throbbing, in the hills half heard,
    Where only on a nameless throne a crownless prince has stirred,
    Where, risen from a doubtful seat and half attained stall,
    The last knight of Europe takes weapons from the wall,...


    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #8 on: October 17, 2011, 03:39:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stephen Francis
    Friends, EVERYONE'S websites are cases of 'take the good, leave the bad', except where they simply provide and support the teachings of the Church. Period.

    There IS no confusion when you stop asking, 'which sede or other trad group is better than the others', and simply ask, 'who is faithful to the Magisterium and the Traditions we have received from Christ and the Apostles?'.

    MHFM, SSPV and all the rest can safely be said to be traditional. You know what the Mass is; don't GO to bastardized Roncalli '62 services, or 'una cum' services that include anti-popes. Simple.

    Don't attend the services of people who are in full and free communion with Rome. The SSPX, based on their track record, are probably safe for the time being; I believe each church or chapel will have to be judged on its own merits for now until this 'preamble' nonsense is finalized. It will remain to be seen whether the SSPX as an organization will remain a valid choice for Catholics.

    Honestly... just ask yourself what the Church teaches, and lay off all the secondary, maybe/possibly stuff. You'll be much safer when you simply ask the Church Fathers and the successors of the Apostles what THEY thought through their writings rather than grasping at doctrinal straws like the Protestants and the Conciliar heretics do.

    As I have said plenty of times before, BOD and BOB are teachings of the Church, but there is no sense in trying to figure out EXACTLY what circumstances would cause those teachings to be applicable. It is much safer to do what Our Lord said when St. Peter asked what was going to happen to the Apostle John: "What does that have to do with you? You follow ME."

    It will get a LOT easier for traditional Catholics if we all just keep concentrating on the things that have ALWAYS mattered, like prayer, the Rosary, the Mass and works of mercy. Diving into all these minutiae and bickering and sniping is certainly not leading anyone to any greater sanctity.

    My vote is to stick with the Fathers, the Doctors, the Saints and the Popes. I have this feeling that Our Lord wants it that way.

    St. John Vianney, patron of faithful priests, pray for us.

    Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.


    It sounds like you just contradicted yourself. You said avoid the Roncalli '62 Mass, but then you said the SSPX was ok. Well that makes no sense because the SSPX uses the Roncalli '62 missal.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #9 on: October 17, 2011, 03:40:51 PM »
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  • MHFM doesn't say "yes" to the SSPX, they say that you can attend but you can't put money in their plate otherwise they say you're a heretic for giving money to heretics. So techinally they say "no" to the Society. The Dimonds support being a home-aloner, meaning that you have access to a TLM but refuse to attend because you don't agree with the views of those celebrating the Mass.

    And I agree with Mater. Yes the Dimonds have some good arguments and materials on their web-site, but you can't base your position entirely on what a couple of laypeople who condemn practically everyone but themselves say.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #10 on: October 17, 2011, 03:46:10 PM »
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  • I think MHFM is a source of great information and spiritual help to all. I would NOT have been a traditional Catholic at all as well if not for them. I would not have known anything about Vatican II specifically or the changing of the rites for sacraments. There is much I owe them, and I have done plenty of rosaries for their cause and community.

    BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.




    Offline s2srea

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2011, 03:57:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: PartyIsOver221
    BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.




    Hey Bud-

    I understand how MHFM is a source of inspiration to those who consider tradition. Even I was exposed to them through one of their videos. So Iknow where you're coming from. That being said, if everyone were to take the advise of MHFM then, while recognizing that they do good WITH bad, they would need to stop attending their services. I mean, and you said it, think of how dangerous being a Home Aloner is...

    What's great is you show your saintliness by doing what they fail to do- you pray for them. I don't know that I see many videos of theirs suggesting this for those 'groups' outside their own...

    Offline s2srea

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    « Reply #12 on: October 17, 2011, 04:44:57 PM »
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  • Sorry- I re read my post. Full of mistakes, but I think you get the gist...  :wink:

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    « Reply #13 on: October 17, 2011, 04:46:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: PartyIsOver221
    BUT I do think sometimes they go over on who is a heretic, on where to go to mass, especially on the home-alonism. Its a dangerous thing, being a home-aloner. Just imagine how much free time you do have, idleness, no other Catholics to bounce anything off of. Nobody. Just you and your missal, maybe some people online , but usually they are very strange people, in my experience. I go to an SSPX/indep mass with a validly ordained Old Rite priest, and little interaction with the SSPX bishops, external clergy , etc. I think it works for now and God has placed me here for a reason. To get the sacraments until a better home is possible.




    Hey Bud-

    I understand how MHFM is a source of inspiration to those who consider tradition. Even I was exposed to them through one of their videos. So Iknow where you're coming from. That being said, if everyone were to take the advise of MHFM then, while recognizing that they do good WITH bad, they would need to stop attending their services. I mean, and you said it, think of how dangerous being a Home Aloner is...

    What's great is you show your saintliness by doing what they fail to do- you pray for them. I don't know that I see many videos of theirs suggesting this for those 'groups' outside their own...



    s2srea, you make a valid point and something that I do agree with. Taking the MHFM stance to their conclusion would separate you from nearly everyone out there including every other traditional Catholic. The remnant is only MHFM? No emotions here, just thinking out loud but I do not think that is possible at all. Are all the Thuc line bishops and sacraments invalid because a few people conjectured and theorized that he was insane and unfit to transfer orders? Are the ABL line invalid because ABL never outright came to the sedevacantist conclusion, or if he did , he shied back to somewhere closer to the Conciliar Church? NO. A valid sacrament is a valid sacrament, in my humble estimation, and wherever you can find this is where you will find God and you will be nourished for the time being.

    Thank you for your compliment, but I am so far from sainthood and I wonder if God even wants me to become a saint for him? Grandiose thoughts of red martyrdom , dieing in battle with a rosary in hand and crucifix in the other, fighting the NWO... these flow through my head. Yet it is most likely pride and anger mixing all together. Or is it...  

    May the Lord keep you , s2rea, and Mary our Mother cover you in her mantle always.

    Offline Stephen Francis

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    MASSIVE SEDEVACANTIST CONFUSION
    « Reply #14 on: October 18, 2011, 09:04:36 AM »
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  • First, I want to make a correction: it was pointed out that I said not to attend a Roncalli '62 Mass, then I said to attend SSPX Masses. I apologize for my oversight. Indeed, the SSPX (for now) is probably safe, although they DO use the '62 Missal. That said, I would rather have a '62 Missal in the hands of someone trained and ordained by Abp. Lefebvre than a totally untouched Missal in the hands of someone who was validly ordained but offers the NO service. Yecch.

    I wanted to post just to encourage you all... soon, sooner than later, I believe, all these things will be sorted and put right. Our Lord's Church will not always have this turmoil, even though He said we would always have tribulation. Our Lady will NEVER, EVER fail to comfort Her children when they look to Her as their precious Mother.

    We speak of sainthood; God is calling ALL of us to sanctity. There is no question about that. With that in mind, please remember that Jesus did not RUN to the Cross on the first day after He was baptized. He prayed, and learned from His Father's Will the obedience that was necessary for Him to be our pure and holy Example. As we study theology, we must pray the Rosary as well. As we debate with those who would defame the Church, we must hear Mass in the state of grace as often as we can. As we instruct the ignorant, we must keep ourselves 'from being defiled by the world', as the Apostle St. James said in Holy Scripture.

    Remember what Our Lord said? "Be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.[/color]"

    Then take to heart what Our Lady said to the children at Fatima: "In the end, My Immaculate Heart WILL triumph.[/color]"

    Our Lady of the Most Holy Rosary, pray for us.

    Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar

     

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