Author Topic: Mary Mother of the Church - AGENDA? (Read 4848 times)

MyrnaM · « **on:** June 04, 2016, 04:36:48 PM »

Recently I read about this new title of Mary. It seems the novus ordo has given her a new title that at first sounds nice. Yet, what is their agenda for its use, I wonder? We all realize that since Vatican II, the new church has been declining with its devotion to her. It is only some of the laity that hang on to her rosary, scapular, True Apparitions and Feast Days; the reason I am sure is, Protestants do not accept veneration to the Mother of God. The One World Religion would not tolerate devotion to her, so their solution is to omit it, little by little. Except they seem to like this new title.

I check the papal encyclicals and the only mention of this new title are from the Conciliar "popes".

The Title after googling it, I notice it on their different organizations, even the nuns who left CMRI years ago accept this title as their own for their service.

What is the Title?
Mary, Mother of the Church

What I read was that it puts Mary outside the Church, could this be the reason why they are promoting it. In the future they can clearly say, Mary is outside the Church.

Thought or insight anyone!

Nick · « **Reply #1 on:** June 04, 2016, 06:15:01 PM »

I dunno,but John 19:26,27 seems to me to make it legitimate.

knish · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2016, 06:19:40 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Recently I read about this new title of Mary. It seems the novus ordo has given her a new title that at first sounds nice. Yet, what is their agenda for its use, I wonder? We all realize that since Vatican II, the new church has been declining with its devotion to her. It is only some of the laity that hang on to her rosary, scapular, True Apparitions and Feast Days; the reason I am sure is, Protestants do not accept veneration to the Mother of God. The One World Religion would not tolerate devotion to her, so their solution is to omit it, little by little. Except they seem to like this new title.

I check the papal encyclicals and the only mention of this new title are from the Conciliar "popes".

The Title after googling it, I notice it on their different organizations, even the nuns who left CMRI years ago accept this title as their own for their service.

What is the Title?
Mary, Mother of the Church

What I read was that it puts Mary outside the Church, could this be the reason why they are promoting it. In the future they can clearly say, Mary is outside the Church.

Thought or insight anyone!

You're right in that marian devotion has certainly declined, and imo, this has occurred by design. However, I think you're looking a little too far into this.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2016, 07:10:26 PM »

Quote from: Nick

I dunno,but John 19:26,27 seems to me to make it legitimate.

Yes, of course, John 19; 26,27 the moment Jesus gave the Queen of heaven and earth as our Mother, that has always been our treasure for Catholics. Protestants do not understand it.

The title the new church gives her is Mother of the Church. I never heard that and I am suspicious because that puts her outside the church in my mind.

Just wanted to pick the brain of anyone else, not looking for a debate about this at all.

Thanks so much for your input.

TKGS · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2016, 07:40:33 PM »

I read once that this title was proposed prior to Vatican 2 but rejected by the Holy Office on theological grounds. Your thought that this would make her, in some way, outside the Church being her mother is a valid consideration.

Additionally, the Church is the Bride of Christ. If Mary is the Mother of both the Church and Christ, this makes for a relationship between Church and Christ that would not be wholesome.

It is my understanding that this title was formally adopted by Roncalli or Montini (not sure which).

Interestingly, according to Wikipedia, the claim is made that the title was used by St. Ambrose in the 4th Century but this was completely unknown by everyone in the world until it was "discovered" by Hugo Rahner, the elder brother of the famous heretic Karl Rahner.

songbird · « **Reply #5 on:** June 05, 2016, 03:43:04 PM »

What first hit me was, "She is Not Mother of God". She is mother of people. If she is not the Mother of God, does that take away from Christ, making him just a person? Yes. I believe the idea is to take away the dogmas/doctrines of Holy Mother church.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #6 on:** June 05, 2016, 03:56:23 PM »

She is certainly the Mother of God, the Mother of Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ, ergo She is the Mother of the Church. She is the Mother of all Christians. I see no problem, theologically, with the title. How would it put her outside the Church if she held fast to the Doctrine of Christ?

TKGS · « **Reply #7 on:** June 05, 2016, 05:39:47 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

I see no problem, theologically, with the title.

Of course, you're a whole lot smarter than those dolts in the Holy Office prior to Vatican 2 when they rejected the title specifically on theological grounds. :rolleyes:

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #8 on:** June 05, 2016, 06:13:50 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

I read once that this title was proposed prior to Vatican 2 but rejected by the Holy Office on theological grounds. Your thought that this would make her, in some way, outside the Church being her mother is a valid consideration.

Additionally, the Church is the Bride of Christ. If Mary is the Mother of both the Church and Christ, this makes for a relationship between Church and Christ that would not be wholesome.

It is my understanding that this title was formally adopted by Roncalli or Montini (not sure which).

Interestingly, according to Wikipedia, the claim is made that the title was used by St. Ambrose in the 4th Century but this was completely unknown by everyone in the world until it was "discovered" by Hugo Rahner, the elder brother of the famous heretic Karl Rahner.

Good thread Myrna, and thanks for the insight TKGS, the title was not in any of our missals (and I go up to 1959 with like 9 missals). I kept hearing it in our SSPX chapel every time they did the Litany of Loreto, and it shook up my reading, I'd think to myself; "what was that, it was not in my missal"? Then I would forget about it till the next time they read it. It is in the SSPX hymnal where the leaders of the prayers were reading it. I will warn everyone about it.

Is it in the 1962 missal the SSPX sells? (which I don't recommend anyone buy)

OHCA · « **Reply #9 on:** June 05, 2016, 06:17:52 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

Quote from: TKGS
I read once that this title was proposed prior to Vatican 2 but rejected by the Holy Office on theological grounds. Your thought that this would make her, in some way, outside the Church being her mother is a valid consideration.

Additionally, the Church is the Bride of Christ. If Mary is the Mother of both the Church and Christ, this makes for a relationship between Church and Christ that would not be wholesome.

It is my understanding that this title was formally adopted by Roncalli or Montini (not sure which).

Interestingly, according to Wikipedia, the claim is made that the title was used by St. Ambrose in the 4th Century but this was completely unknown by everyone in the world until it was "discovered" by Hugo Rahner, the elder brother of the famous heretic Karl Rahner.

Good thread Myrna, and thanks for the insight TKGS, the title was not in any of our missals (and I go up to 1959 with like 9 missals). I kept hearing it in our SSPX chapel every time they did the Litany of Loreto, and it shook up my reading, what was that, it was not in my missal? Then I would forget about it till the next time they read it. It is in the SSPX hymnal where the leaders of the prayers were reading it. I will warn everyone about it.

Is it in the 1962 missal the SSPX sells? (which I don't recommend anyone buy)

For some reason I didn't take to you when you first came to CI. But I have found myself strongly agreeing with the past several posts of yours that I have seen.

Matto · « **Reply #10 on:** June 05, 2016, 06:29:41 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican

I kept hearing it in our SSPX chapel every time they did the Litany of Loreto, and it shook up my reading, I'd think to myself; "what was that, it was not in my missal"? Then I would forget about it till the next time they read it. It is in the SSPX hymnal where the leaders of the prayers were reading it. I will warn everyone about it.

Is it in the 1962 missal the SSPX sells? (which I don't recommend anyone buy)

I bought my missal from the Angelus Press and it is not in my missal.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2016, 05:56:38 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: Centroamerica
I see no problem, theologically, with the title.

Of course, you're a whole lot smarter than those dolts in the Holy Office prior to Vatican 2 when they rejected the title specifically on theological grounds. :rolleyes:

I never made such a stupid claim.

How about showing some sort of proof of your claim?

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2016, 08:28:05 AM »

It is not found in any missal up to 1962 so far, so it might be a Paul VI thing. Anyone have a 1965 missal or 1967 missal?

Centro,

If this title is not in the Litany of Loreto in our missals, so far prior to at least before 1962, then it is a novelty, and would corroborate what TKGS in saying. Personally, I cringed every time it it is used in the Litany of Loreto.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #13 on:** June 06, 2016, 09:44:47 AM »

Personally, I have never seen it before. Never seen this title of the Blessed Virgin in any litany or anything. But that is besides the point. The point should be focused on showing why it is not a suitable title for the BVM. this is what I would ask to those who oppose it. I can see why protties would oppose it. That I can understand. But why would a Catholic, in good faith, deny this title to the BVM? I don't use it, but should I speak against others who do? Why? What is the reason? Are you saying that, based on a theological motive, the BVM is not the Mother of the Catholic Church, and by that I mean the Mother of the Body of Christ and all true Christians? A certain Americanism could be interpreted in the motive of denying this title if one is not careful.

Instead of saying that it is novel, and this alone being the reason for rejecting it, someone should base the assertion on something more concrete. It really doesn't seem to be so novel besides not appearing in the Litany. Mediatrix of all grace also does not appear in the Litany. Must we confine oursleves to titles that only appear in the Litany in order to avoid being considered Modernists? I don't think so.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #14 on:** June 06, 2016, 10:03:52 AM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

Personally, I have never seen it before. Never seen this title of the Blessed Virgin in any litany or anything. But that is besides the point. The point should be focused on showing why it is not a suitable title for the BVM. this is what I would ask to those who oppose it. I can see why protties would oppose it. That I can understand. But why would a Catholic, in good faith, deny this title to the BVM? I don't use it, but should I speak against others who do? Why? What is the reason? Are you saying that, based on a theological motive, the BVM is not the Mother of the Catholic Church, and by that I mean the Mother of the Body of Christ and all true Christians? A certain Americanism could be interpreted in the motive of denying this title if one is not careful.

Instead of saying that it is novel, and this alone being the reason for rejecting it, someone should base the assertion on something more concrete. It really doesn't seem to be so novel besides not appearing in the Litany. Mediatrix of all grace also does not appear in the Litany. Must we confine oursleves to titles that only appear in the Litany in order to avoid being considered Modernists? I don't think so.

As a traditional Catholics who sees the errors of Vatican II we are suspicious and rightly so.

I did find that it was added * Note: 1980 Addition (Pope John Paul II); Information I found on this site http://www.mycatholicsource.com/mcs/pc/the_Blessed_Virgin/marian_prayers.htm#Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary - Litany of Loreto
scrolling down to read what the single asterisk meant.

According to the dictionary another word for Mother is Begetter, and synonyms for Begetter are words such as founder, architect, author, designer, maker, producer; ... of which Mary was none of, but the author of the Church IS GOD.

Might that be their agenda as the years go by? This Church was merely founded by a woman. What an evil thought.