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Author Topic: Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God  (Read 1837 times)

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Offline apollo

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Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
« on: July 27, 2016, 12:37:21 PM »
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  • I found the following text written by Fr Kevin Robinson at this webpage:
    http://drbo.org/valtorta.htm   I realize there is another thread but it starts
    off with old information and seems out of date.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The Poem Of The Man-God", by Maria Valtorta, Is It Approved?

    Many conservative and traditional Catholics have been misled by an article circulating since 1992, referring to Cardinal Ratzinger's letter of 1985 and a summary of the seven "reasons" for condemnation of The Poem of the Man God in 1960.  There is a good analysis of this in a new book Fireworks (Kolbe Publications Sherbrooke, Canada, 1996, pp. 78-79, 87-107). It points out (p. 105) that Father Giraudo of the Holy Office in early 1962 reversed the previous decision of that Office to place The Poem on the Index of Forbidden Books.

    Since then [1996], acceptance of The Poem has spread widely with imprimatur granted by Bishop Roman Danylak in Rome [1998] for all the approved English translations.  The canonical approval to publish, given by Pope Pius XII has not been seriously challenged.

    See Gamaliel's advice, [Acts 5:38-39]

    Don't forget, the approval of Pope Pius XII was more than an Imprimatur (permission to publish).  It was an instruction to publish, given at the Vatican before official witnesses on February 26, 1948.

    Internal Value Of The Work

    Now for the intrinsic arguments.  Just about all the objections to The Poem involve taking quotes somehow out of context. There are three ways to take a text out of context and thus distort its meaning.

    First there is verbal or literal context.  The Bible has these words: "There is no God" (Ps. 52), and "Christ died in vain" (Gal. 2:21).  No one can say that the Bible says (affirms) these statements, because in context we have: "The fool says in his heart, there is no God"; and "If justice comes by the law, then Christ died in vain".  Yet the verbal context could also be made clear somewhere else, (e.g. St. Paul saying "I would wish to be anathema from Christ", in Rom 9:3), can only be understood rightly in the light of verses 38-39 of the previous chapter, and the rest of Chapters 9, 10 and 11.  Likewise with Our Lord's words about cutting off a hand or plucking out an eye (Matt. 5:29 30) in a true verbal context we must understand the literary expression of hyperbole.  It would be wrong to take it too literally.  In the same way, Our Lord has given Maria Valtorta some surprising expressions, which the context makes quite clear.

    Second is the cultural and temporal context.  It comes as a surprise for some to realise that Christ our Saviour was truly human, and with other characters of the Gospel, was of quite a different cultural stock (from ourselves).  Jєωιѕн first century styles and customs greatly differ from Western twentieth century ones.  ...

    Thirdly, the most important context is the doctrinal or faith context.  This is the norm for interpreting Sacred Scripture consistent with the unanimous view of the early Fathers or the analogy of faith, (i.e. we must always interpret in conformity with the Magisterium of the Church.)  The Vatican newspaper in 1960 hinted at an error in Valtorta's account of the sin of Eve.  Fr. Roschini O.S.M. exposes the falsity of this charge in his book The Virgin Mary in the Writings of Maria Valtorta (Kolbe., Sherbrooke, Canada, 1986, pp. 276-279).  He points out that The Poem teaches precisely what St. Thomas taught: that the first sin was a complex one involving pride, disobedience, gluttony and finally lust ("fuerunt plures deformitates", Summa 1 li 9.82. a.2, ad 1).  He goes on to quote 10 saints and numerous other theologians in support of Valtorta! This is context.

    With Valtorta, as with the canonical Scriptures, there are difficulties that are easily resolved by distinction from Thomistic philosophy such as: general vs. specific, strictly vs. broadly, properly vs. allegorically, in fieri vs. in facto esse, ad esse vs. ad melior esse, simpliciter vs. quodammodo.  These distinctions are usually not needed for the simple faithful as the context gives them the truth without danger.

    A Most Quoted "Error"

    It has been described as blasphemous that Our Lady could say what is recorded in pages 37-42 of The Poem.  There the Blessed Virgin is three years old, talking with her parents.  She expresses her great desire to see the Saviour, Who She knows will come for sinners.  She asks a logical question: "Can I be more saved and loved by Christ if I become a big sinner?"  The question shows that even with Her infused knowledge, Mary was ignorant of the great gift of Her Immaculate Conception, which St. Joachim then explains to Her with a beautiful comparison.  There is no dispute in Catholic theology about Mary's Immaculate Conception (since 1854) but there is a lawful and traditional disagreement about the extent of Her infused knowledge.  On these disputed questions of theology, no one has the right to call the other opinion blasphemous.  Nor should Our Lady's statement be taken out of context to condemn the whole work.

    Thus you have the answer to the main objections.  The writings of Maria Valtorta are in no way opposed to the Catholic faith or morals; they were never put on the Index of Forbidden Books for any valid reason, and they continue to edify the Church resulting in many conversions and vocations.  Valtorta's writings were specially given by Christ Our Lord as a gift to His priests, to support the work of His Vicar St Pius X to combat Modernism (see The Poem. vol. 5, pp 946), and to reveal the truth of the Gospel in a special way.  They fill in the gaps.  They put you in the picture.  They amplify the sacred text, (e.g. the Passion may be five pages in your Gospel, it is 100 pages in The Poem.)

    If The Poem at times seems sentimental, it is really the remedy of sentimentalism in matters of faith.  It is no more sensual than the works of St. Ignatius, who encourages the use of all five senses, plus imagination, in his Spiritual Exercises.  Valtorta always leads from the senses to the spiritual, the sublime and the supernatural.

    It is a masterpiece of sacred literature, unlike anything ever written.  In some ways it is like being in the first seminary, trained by the Master Himself.  A professor and sculptor friend of Maria Valtorta wrote in 1965: "(her works) have completely transformed my inner life.  The knowledge of Christ has become so total as to make the Gospels clear to me and make me live them in everyday life better" (Lorenzo Ferri). All those among our parishioners who have read Valtorta say the same thing.

    With Pius XII I say: "He who reads will understand"

    Remember that her major work on the Life of Christ, THE POEM OF THE MAN GOD, was condemned by the Holy Office in Rome mistakenly ONLY for the same reasons and the same time frame (2 years) as was the Saint Padre Pio condemned thirty years previously.

    Only one Biblical Scholar of the twentieth century, has been recognised and beatified for his learning AND holiness; Blessed Gabriel Allegra. He first put the Bible into Chinese, and his latter years were spent reading, studying and promoting the Poem.

    Fr. Gabriel Roschini, a famous Mariologist who also promoted Valtorta until his death in 1976, considered her writings greater than anything he has ever read on Our Blessed Lady. He wrote over 125 totally orthodox books!

    St. Pius X granted an apostolic blessing for those who read "True Devotion".  One day (perhaps) a traditional pope will grant a similar reward for reading Maria Valtorta. When you have read the Poem, read the Notebooks.

    Fr Robinson
    April 25 2006

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------




    Offline apollo

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #1 on: July 27, 2016, 12:42:20 PM »
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  • This docuмent http://drbo.org/dnl/Maria_Valtorta_Summa_Encyclopedia.pdf
    has the following text at the beginning:

    “I assure you that the Poem of the Man-God immensely surpasses whatever descriptions —
    I do not say of mine, because I do not know how to write — but of any other writer... It is a
    work which makes one grow in the knowledge and love of the Lord Jesus and of His Holy
    Mother ... I hold that the work demands a supernatural origin.” (Blessed Gabriel Allegra, O.F.M.,
    a saintly missionary, world-renowned theologian, and the only beatified biblical scholar of the
    20th century)

    “Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural
    origin. Those who read it will understand.” (Pope Pius XII on February 26, 1948 to Frs. Berti,
    Migliorini, and Cecchin, after reviewing the Poem of the Man-God for a year)

    “I don’t advise you to [read Maria Valtorta’s books] – I order you to!” (Saint Padre Pio’s
    answer to a long-time spiritual daughter of his, Mrs. Elisa Lucchi, in 1967, when she asked
    him in Confession, “Father, I have heard mention of Maria Valtorta’s books. Do you advise
    me to read them?”)

    “Maria Valtorta is one of the eighteen greatest mystics of all time.” (Fr. Gabriel Roschini, O.S.M.,
    world-renowned Mariologist, decorated professor at the Marianum Pontifical Faculty of Theology
    in Rome, Consultor of the Holy Office, wrote over 130 traditional/orthodox books about Our Lady)

    “There are hundreds of topographical names and details and of descriptions of places…which
    only the latest research and archaeological excavations have brought to light. Maria Valtorta’s
    Work is, in truth, inexplicable by merely human means.” (Antonio Socci, Leading Journalist & TV
    Show Host)

    “I have read about a 1,000 pages a year of Valtorta for 20 years, since Fr. (now Bishop)
    Williamson appointed me to run the seminary bookstore. He was led to read it by the great
    Retreat Master of Econe, Fr. Barrielle ... It is a masterpiece of sacred literature, unlike anything
    ever written.” (Fr. Kevin Robinson, FSSPX – Priestly Fraternity of the Society of St. Pius X)


    Offline Matto

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #2 on: July 27, 2016, 12:52:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: apollo
    I found the following text written by Fr Kevin Robinson at this webpage:

    Father Kevin Robinson used to be my priest. It makes me happy when I see him mentioned (unless of course he is mentioned in a bad way).
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #3 on: July 27, 2016, 01:02:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: apollo
    It is a masterpiece of sacred literature, unlike anything
    ever written.” (Fr. Kevin Robinson, FSSPX – Priestly Fraternity of the Society of St. Pius X)


     :facepalm:

    Offline cassini

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #4 on: July 28, 2016, 07:04:03 AM »
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  • Maria Valtorta

    in Poem of the Man God Maria refers to the earth revolving around the sun in her 1948 notebook.
    This reference was defined as formal heresy in 1616 by Pope Paul V and confirmed as an irreversible papal decree in by the Holy Office of 1633 and 1820, never abrogated.

    All book making this heretical reference were put on the Index until 1741, when convinced the earth really did orbit the sun the overall ban was removed leaving just five books referring to the heresy on the Index. These five were removed in 1835.
    In 1960 or so, all heretical books were removed from the Index by Pope Paul VI. The heresies in them of course remain heresies.

    For me at any rate this puts Maria Valtorta's writings into human views, certainly not heavenly inspired.


    Offline apollo

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #5 on: July 28, 2016, 12:28:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: cassini
    Maria Valtorta in Poem of the Man God Maria refers to the earth revolving around the sun in her 1948 notebook ...

    when convinced the earth really did orbit the sun the overall ban was removed leaving just five
    books referring to the heresy on the Index. These five were removed in 1835.

    In 1960 or so, all heretical books were removed from the Index by Pope Paul VI. The heresies in them of course remain heresies.

    For me at any rate this puts Maria Valtorta's writings into human views, certainly not heavenly inspired.


    Except that the "heresy" that the Earth orbits the Sun is not a heresy.
    At this page:

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-papacy-and-galileo.html

    I found the following:

    Second, the Catholic Church has never defined — nor could it ever define — any theory of physical science as a matter of faith. There never was any "dogma" which said the earth was the center of the universe or the solar system. The next time people claim Galileo bravely challenged such a "dogma," ask them to identify its official name, the name of the pope who defined it, and the date it was defined. If they can't provide you with this basic information, demand that they cite the source of their "facts."

    Was the Galileo case an embarrassment to the Church? Yes. Was the situation rectified later? Yes — in 1825, in an official docuмent by Dom Olivieri, the General of the Dominican order and commissary of the Holy Office, which apologized for the condemnation and rehabilitated Galileo and his work.

    In 1989, Pope John Paul II discussed the mistakes the Church made in its handling of the Galileo case. He apologized for the Church's handling of the case, further rehabilitated Galileo's name, and pointed out once again that the province of the Church is theology and revelation, not science or astronomy.









    Offline apollo

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #6 on: July 28, 2016, 02:47:15 PM »
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  • Taken from the:

    Poem Of The Man-God, Volume 5 (original version)

    546.  Resurrection of Lazarus.
            26th December 1946.
     
    «The Master! » exclaim the first to see Him, and the word flies from group to group like the
    rustling of the wind; it spreads, like a wave that comes from afar and breaks on the shore as
    far as the walls of the house and enters it, certainly carried by the many Judaeans present, or
    by some Pharisees, rabbis or scribes or Sadducees, scattered here and there.

    Martha goes on: «But there is no more peace for Your servant.» Still on her knees she looks
    up at Jesus and with a cry of grief that is clearly heard in the prevailing silence she exclaims:
    «Lazarus is dead! If You had been here, he would not have died. Why did You not come sooner,
    Master? » There is an unintentional tone of reproach in her question. She then reverts to the
    depressed tone of one who no longer has the strength to reproach and whose only comfort is
    to recollect the last acts and wishes of a relative to whom one has tried to give what he
    wanted, and there is therefore no remorse in one's heart, and she says: «Lazarus, our brother,
    has called You so much!... Now, see! I am grieved and Mary is weeping and she cannot set her
    mind at rest. And he is no longer here! You know how much we loved him! We were hoping
    everything from You!...»

    Martha, after wiping her face, resumes: «But even now I hope because I know that whatever
    You ask of God, He will grant You.» A sorrowful heroic profession of faith uttered in a trembling
    weeping voice, with her eyes full of anxiety and her heart throbbing with the last hope.

    «Your brother will rise again. Stand up, Martha.»

    Martha stands up, stooping out of respect before Jesus to Whom she replies: «I know, Master.
    He will rise again at the resurrection on the last day.»

    «I am the Resurrection and Life. Whoever believes in Me, even if he dies, will live. And
    whoever believes and lives in Me will never die. Do you believe all that?» Jesus, Who had
    previously spoken in a rather low voice, addressing Martha only, raises His voice when saying
    these sentences in which He proclaims His power of God, and its perfect timbre resounds like a
    golden blare in the vast garden. The people present quiver with an emotion resembling fear.
    Then some sneer shaking their heads.

    The Judaeans are watching Him. They have involuntarily divided into clearly distinct groups.
    On one side, in front of Jesus, all those who are hostile to Him, usually separated from one
    another by sectarian spirit, but now concordant in opposing Jesus.

    With her usual cry: «Rabboni! » Mary runs out of the house with her arms stretched out
    towards Jesus and throws herself at His feet, which she kisses sobbing deeply.

    «Peace to you, Mary. Stand up! Look at Me! Why weep thus, like one who has no hope? »
    Jesus stoops to say these words in a low voice, His eyes staring at Mary's, who on her knees,
    relaxing on her heels, stretches her hands towards Him imploringly and is unable to speak, so
    deep is her sobbing: «Did I not tell you to hope beyond what is credible in order to see the
    glory of God? Has your Master perhaps changed, that you are so depressed? »

    ... at last, she shouts: «Oh! Lord! Why did You not come sooner? Why did You go away from
     us? You knew that Lazarus was ill! If You had been here my brother would not have died. Why
    did You not come?

    Oh! Jesus! Jesus! My Master! My Saviour! My hope! » and she collapses again, her forehead on
    Jesus' feet, which are washed once again by her tears, and she moans: «Why have you done
    that, Lord?! Also on account of those who hate You and are now rejoicing at what has
    happened... Why have You done that, Jesus?! »

    Jesus, Who has bent very low to hear those words whispered with her face near the ground,
    stands up and says in a loud voice: «Mary, do not weep! Also your Master is suffering for the
    death of His faithful friend... for having had to let him die...»

    Oh! How sneering and radiant with hateful joy are the faces of the enemies of Christ! They feel
    that He is defeated and rejoice, whilst His friends are becoming sadder and sadder.

    Jesus says in an even louder voice: «But I tell you: do not weep. Stand up! Look at Me! Do you
    think that I, Who loved you so much, have done this without a reason? Can you believe that I
    have grieved you thus in vain? Come. Let us go to Lazarus. Where have you put him? »

    Martha, beside Jesus Who has forced Mary to stand up and is now guiding her, as she is
    blinded by her copious tears, points out to Jesus where Lazarus is, and when they are near the
    place she also says: «It is there, Master, that Your friend is buried » and she points at the
    stone placed across the entrance of the sepulchre.

    Jesus, followed by everybody, has to pass in front of Gamaliel, in order to go there. But
    neither He nor Gamaliel greet each other. Gamaliel then joins the others stopping with all the
    more rigid Pharisees a few metres from the sepulchre, while Jesus goes on, very close to it.

    Jesus looks at the heavy stone placed as a door against the sepulchre, a heavy obstacle
    between Him and His dead friend, and He weeps. The wailing of the sisters grows louder, as
    well as that of intimate friends and relatives.

    «Remove that stone » shouts Jesus all of a sudden, after wiping His tears.

    Everybody is surprised and a murmur runs through the crowd that has become larger as some
    people of Bethany have entered the garden and have followed the guests. I can see some
    Pharisees touch their foreheads and shake their heads meaning: «He is mad! ». No one carries
    out the order. Even the most faithful ones are hesitant and feel repugnance to do it.

    Jesus repeats His order in a louder voice astonishing even more the people, who urged by
    opposed feelings react at first as if they wanted to run away, but immediately afterwards they
    wish to draw closer, to see, defying the stench of the sepulchre that Jesus wants opened.

    «Master, it is not possible » says Martha striving to restrain her tears to be able to speak.
    «He has been down there for four days. And You know of what disease he died! Only our love
    made it possible for us to cure him... By now he will certainly smell notwithstanding the
    ointments... What do You want to see? His rottenness?... It is not possible... also because of
    the uncleannes of putrefaction and...»

    «Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?
    Remove that stone. I want it! » It is the cry of divine will...

    A subdued «oh! » is uttered by every mouth. Faces grow pale. Some people shiver as if an icy
    wind of death had blown over everybody.

    The servants run away and come back with picks and sturdy levers. And they work inserting
    the points of the shining picks between the rock and the stone, and then replacing the picks
    with the sturdy levers and finally lifting the stone carefully, letting it slide to one side and
    dragging it cautiously against the rocky wall. An infected stench comes out of the dark hole
    making everyone withdraw.

    Martha asks in a low voice: «Master, do You want to go down there? If You do, torches will be
    required...» But she is wan at the thought of having to go down.

    Jesus does not reply to her. He raises His eyes to the sky, He stretches out His arms crosswise
    and prays in a very loud voice syllabising the words: «Father! I thank You for hearing Me. I
    knew that You always hear Me. But I said so for those who are present here, for the people
    surrounding Me, that they may believe in You, in Me, and that You have sent Me! »

    He remains thus for a moment and He becomes so transfigured that He seems to be
    enraptured, while without uttering any sound He says more secret words of prayer or
    adoration. I do not know. What I know is that He is so transhumanised that it is not possible to
    look at Him without feeling one's heart quiver. His body seems to become light, spiritualised,
    rising in height and also from the earth. Although the shades of His hair, eyes, complexion,
    garments remain unchanged ? contrary to what happened during the transfiguration on mount
    Tabor when everything became light and dazzling brightness ? He seems to shed light and that
    His whole body becomes light. Light seems to form a halo around Him, particularly round His
    face raised to the sky, certainly enraptured in the contemplation of His Father.

    He remains thus for some time, then He becomes Himself, the Man, but powerfully majestic.
    He proceeds as far as the threshold of the sepulchre. He moves His arms forward ? so far He
    had held them crosswise, the palms turned upwards ? now with palms turned downwards, so
    that His hands are already inside the hole of the sepulchre and their whiteness is outstanding in
    the darkness of the hole. His blue eyes are blazing and their flash forecasting a miracle is
    today unsustainable, in the silent darkness, and in a powerful voice and with a cry louder than
    the one He uttered on the lake when He ordered the wind to abate, in a voice that I never
    heard in any other miracle, He shouts: «Lazarus! Come out!» His voice is echoed by the
    sepulchral cave and coming out of it, it spreads all over the garden, it is repeated by the
    undulations of the ground of Bethany, I think it travels as far as the first hills beyond the fields
    and then comes back, repeated and subdued, like an order that cannot fail. It is certain that
    from numberless directions one can hear again: «out!  out! out! »

    Everybody is thrilled with emotion and if curiosity rivets everyone in his place, faces grow pale
    and eyes are opened wide while mouths are closed involuntarily with cries of surprise already
    on their lips.

    Martha, a little behind and to one side, seems fascinated looking at Jesus. Mary, who has never
    moved away from the Master, falls on her knees at the entrance of the sepulchre, one hand on
    her breast to check her throbbing heart, the other holding the edge of Jesus' mantle
    unconsciously and convulsively, and one realises that she is trembling because the mantle is
    shaken lightly by the hand holding it.

    "Something white seems to emerge from the deep end of the sepulchre. At first it is just a
    short convex line, then it becomes oval-shaped, then wider and longer lines appear. And the
    dead body, enveloped in its bandages, comes slowly forward, becoming more visible, more
    mysterious and more awful.

    Jesus draws back, imperceptibly, but continuously, as the other moves forward. Thus the
    distance between the two is always the same.

    Mary is compelled to drop the edge of the mantle, but she does not move from where she is.
    Joy, emotion, everything, nail her to the place where she is.

    An «oh! » is uttered more and more clearly by the lips previously closed by the anxiety of
    suspense: from a whisper hardly distinguishable it changes into a voice, from a voice into a
    powerful cry.

    Lazarus is by now on the threshold of the sepulchre and he remains there rigid and silent, like
    a plaster statue just rough?hewed, thus shapeless, a long thing, thin at the head and legs,
    thicker at the trunk, as macabre as death itself, ghost?like in the white bandages against the
    dark background of the sepulchre. As the sun shines on him, putrid matter can be seen
    dripping already here and there from the bandages.

    Jesus shouts out in a loud voice: «Unbind him and let him go. Give him clothes and food.»

    «Master!...» says Martha, and perhaps she would like to say more, but Jesus stares at her
    subduing her with His bright eyes and He says: «Here! At once! Bring a garment. Dress him in
    the presence of all the people and give him something to eat.» He orders and never turns
    round to look at those who are behind and around Him. He looks only at Lazarus, at Mary who
    is near her resurrected brother, heedless of the disgust caused to everybody by the putrid
    bandages, and at Martha who is panting as if she felt her heart break and does not know
    whether she should shout for joy or weep ...

    ... The shroud placed round his body falls off slowly as the bandages are removed, freeing the
    trunk that they had enveloped for days, restoring a human figure to what they had previously
    transformed into something like a huge chrysalid. The bony shoulders, the emaciated arms,
    the ribs just covered with skin, the sunken stomach begin to appear slowly. And as the
    bandages fall off, the sisters, Maximinus, the servants busy themselves removing the first
    layer of dirt and balms and they insist continuously changing the water made detergent with
    spices, until the skin appears clean.

    ... Martha thinks that he wishes to say something but has no voice yet and she asks:
    «What are you saying to me, my Lazarus? »

    «Nothing, Martha. I was thanking the Most High.» His pronunciation is steady, his voice loud.
    The crowds utter an «oh! » of amazement once again.

    ... Jesus goes personally towards a servant who is carrying a tray on which there is some food
    and He takes a honey?cake, an apple, a goblet of wine, and He offers them to Lazarus, after
    offering and blessing them, so that he may nourish himself. And Lazarus eats with the healthy
    appetite of one who is well. A further «oh! » of amazement is uttered by the crowd.

    Jesus seems to see no one but Lazarus, but in actual fact He observes everything and
    everybody and when He sees with what furious gestures Sadoc, Helkai, Hananiah, Felix, Doras
    and Cornelius and others are about to go away, He says in a loud voice: «Wait a moment,
    Sadoc. I want to have a word with you, with you and your friends.»

    They stop with the sinister look of criminals.

    Joseph of Arimathea makes a gesture as if he were frightened and beckons to the Zealot to
    restrain Jesus. But He is already going towards the rancorous group and is already saying
    loud:

    «Sadoc, is what you have seen enough for you? One day you told Me that in order to
    believe, you and your peers needed to see a decomposed dead body be recomposed and in
    good health. Are you satisfied with the rottenness you have seen? Can you admit that Lazarus
    was dead and that now he is alive and healthy, as he has never been for many years? I know.
    You came here to tempt these people, to increase their grief and their doubt. You came here
    looking for Me, hoping to find Me hiding in the room of the dying man. You did not come with
    feelings of love and with the desire to honour the deceased man, but to ensure that Lazarus
    was really dead, and you have continued to come rejoicing all the more as time went by. If the
    situation had evolved as you were hoping, as you believed it would evolve, you would have
    been right in exulting.

    The Friend Who cures everybody, but does not cure His friend. The
    Master Who rewards everybody's faith, but not the faith of His friends in Bethany. The Messiah
    powerless against the reality of death. That is what was making you exult. Then God gave you
    His reply. No prophet had ever been able to put together what was decomposed, in addition to
    being dead. God did it. That is the living witness of what I am. One day it was God Who took
    some dust and made it into a form and He breathed the vital spirit into it and man was. I was
    there to say: "Let man be made in our own image and likeness". Because I am the Word of the
    Father. Today, I, the Word, said to what is even less than dust, I said to rottenness: "Live", and
    decomposition was recomposed into flesh, into wholesome, living, breathing flesh. There it is
    looking at you. And to the flesh I joined the spirit that had been lying for days in Abraham's
    bosom. I called him with My will, because I can do everything, as I am the Living Being, the
    King of kings to Whom all creatures and things are subject. What are you going to reply to Me
    now? »

    He is in front of them, tall, ablaze with majesty, really Judge and God. They do not reply.
    He insists: «Is it not yet enough for you to believe, to accept what is ineluctable? »

    «You have kept but one part of Your promise. This is not the sign of Jonah...» says Sadoc harshly.

    «You shall have that one as well. I promised it and I will keep My promise » says the Lord. And
    another person, who is present here, and is waiting for another sign, shall have it. And as he is
    a just man, he will accept it. You will not. You will remain what you are.»

    He turns round and sees Simon, the member of the Sanhedrin, the son of Elianna. He gazes at
    him. He leaves the previous group and when He is face to face with him, He says in a low but
    incisive voice: «You are fortunate that Lazarus does not remember his stay among the dead!
    What have you done with your father, o Cain? »

    Simon runs away with a cry of fear that he changes into a howl of malediction: «May You be
    cursed, Nazarene! » to which Jesus replies: «Your curse is rising to Heaven and from Heaven
    the Most High throws it back at you. You are marked with the sign, you wretch! »

    He goes back to the groups that are astonished, almost frightened. He meets Gamaliel who is
    going towards the road. He looks at Gamaliel, who looks at Him. Jesus says to him without
    stopping: «Be ready, rabbi. The sign will come soon. I never lie.»

    The garden slowly becomes empty. The Judaeans are dumbfounded, but most of them are
    bursting with wrath. If glances could reduce one to ashes, Jesus would have been pulverised a
    long time ago. They speak and discuss among themselves while going away, and they are so
    upset by their defeat that they are unable to conceal the purpose of their presence here under
    the hypocritical appearance of friendship. They go away without saying goodbye to Lazarus or
    to the sisters.

    Offline cassini

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #7 on: July 30, 2016, 06:06:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: apollo
    Quote from: cassini
    Maria Valtorta in Poem of the Man God Maria refers to the earth revolving around the sun in her 1948 notebook ...

    when convinced the earth really did orbit the sun the overall ban was removed leaving just five
    books referring to the heresy on the Index. These five were removed in 1835.

    In 1960 or so, all heretical books were removed from the Index by Pope Paul VI. The heresies in them of course remain heresies.

    For me at any rate this puts Maria Valtorta's writings into human views, certainly not heavenly inspired.


    Except that the "heresy" that the Earth orbits the Sun is not a heresy.
    At this page:

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-papacy-and-galileo.html

    I found the following:

    Second, the Catholic Church has never defined — nor could it ever define — any theory of physical science as a matter of faith. There never was any "dogma" which said the earth was the center of the universe or the solar system. The next time people claim Galileo bravely challenged such a "dogma," ask them to identify its official name, the name of the pope who defined it, and the date it was defined. If they can't provide you with this basic information, demand that they cite the source of their "facts."

    Was the Galileo case an embarrassment to the Church? Yes. Was the situation rectified later? Yes — in 1825, in an official docuмent by Dom Olivieri, the General of the Dominican order and commissary of the Holy Office, which apologized for the condemnation and rehabilitated Galileo and his work.

    In 1989, Pope John Paul II discussed the mistakes the Church made in its handling of the Galileo case. He apologized for the Church's handling of the case, further rehabilitated Galileo's name, and pointed out once again that the province of the Church is theology and revelation, not science or astronomy.


    For me popes define what is heresy and what is not. Maybe your Catholicism is found on a website or in the opinion of some theologian who thinks he knows the fact of the case, but not mine.

    The true facts of the Galileo case are found in the secret archives of the Church, not on websites.

    The decree defining a fixed sun as formal heresy was declared by Pope Paul v in 1616. The heresy was the old Pythagorean heresy. This definition was confirmed as heresy by pope Urban VIII in 1633, and again by Pope Pius VII's Holy Office in 1820. The minutes of these confirmations are available to all these days.

    The Church can define as dogma any interpretation of the Bible no matter the subject matter. The mere fact that it is recorded in the Scriptures makes it a matter of faith. Three encyclicals on Scripture confirm every word of Scripture is inspired by God.

    In 1820 the Pope took books off the Index, nothing more. In 1960 Pope Paul VI took all books off the Index but the heresies in them remained heresies. Not one pope ever actually challenged the infallibility of the 1616 decree. Quite the opposite, they confirmed it was irreversible.

    In 1992 Pope John Paul merely discussed the 1633 sentence given to Galileo in a commission. Having read  the findings of this commission they are a disgrace to the Catholic faith. The Church when defining dogmas (heresies) cannot make MISTAKES. Do you not know that or believe that? Is that itself not a dogma? Why then fall for the lies of websites and seek the truth of your faith? Have you no CATHOLIC INSTINCTS?

    John Paul II's  Commission has ZERO authority over Church teachings. The Commission did not DARE challenge the 1616 decree. PapaL DECREES DEFINING HERESY CANNOT BE OVERTURNED, WHATEVER ABOUT BEING IGNORED THROUGH IGNORANCE. God has given His word no pope will officially contradict the Papal definitions of a previous pope. As regards the 1616 dogma, no pope ever has.



    Offline apollo

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #8 on: July 30, 2016, 11:28:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: cassini

    (1) For me popes define what is heresy and what is not.


    But not pope John Paul II ?

    Quote from: cassini

    (2) The true facts of the Galileo case are found in the secret archives of the Church, not on websites.


    So you went to Rome and went into the Vatican library?

    Quote from: cassini

    (3) The decree defining a fixed sun as formal heresy was declared by Pope Paul v in 1616.


    NOT TRUE !  It was not a declaration of formal heresy.  It merely said Galileo was
    suspected of heresy.  This is definitely NOT an infallible statement of a pope.

    Below is the wording, found here:
    http://www.geocentrismdebunked.org/copernicanism-is-never-declared-to-be-formally-heretical-in-the-1633-decree/

    "We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters
    adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of
    this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held
    the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is
    the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is
    not the center of the world; ..."

    I also found this here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

    "the Church has taken various steps to reverse its opposition to Galileo's conclusions. In 1757,
    Galileo's "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" was removed from the Index,"

    and this here:
    http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/31/world/after-350-years-vatican-says-galileo-was-right-it-moves.html

    "More than 350 years after the Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo, Pope John Paul II
    is poised to rectify one of the Church's most infamous wrongs -- the persecution of the Italian
    astronomer and physicist for proving the Earth moves around the Sun."

    and this at: http://drbo.org/catechism.htm#lesson12

    "6.  Is not the Bible statement that the sun stood still in the heavens (Jos.  10, 13) an example
    of obvious error?

    No, we must remember that the Bible was written in every-day language of the time, not in
    scientific terms.  Even to this day, for example, we speak of sunset even though the sun is not
    setting anywhere and we know that the Earth is orbiting around the Sun and not vice-versa."

    Quote from: cassini

    (4) The mere fact that it is recorded in the Scriptures makes it a matter of faith. Three encyclicals on Scripture confirm every word of Scripture is inspired by God.


    But Catholics must believe the interpretation as defined by the Church.  And the theory that
    the Earth orbits has never been defined as formal heresy.  

    Despite the claim of Geocentrists, it is now a proven fact of science that the Earth orbits
    the Sun.   And I will not discuss Geocentrism in this discussion of Maria Valtorta

    Quote from: cassini

    (6) Do you not know that or believe that? Is that itself not a dogma? Why then fall for the lies
    of websites and seek the truth of your faith? Have you no CATHOLIC INSTINCTS?


    Geocentrism is definitely NOT a dogma of the Catholic Church !!!

    Is it your Catholic instinct which makes you a die-hard Geocentrists ?

    Quote from: cassini

    (7) PapaL DECREES DEFINING HERESY CANNOT BE OVERTURNED.


    Except that Geocentrism is NOT a papal decree.  

    I'm not going to discuss this point anymore.  I know you don't agree with me.

    So, then in your case ... don't read the Poem Of The Man-God.  

    But let those people who know that the Earth orbits the Sun read it.




    Offline cassini

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #9 on: July 30, 2016, 03:23:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: apollo
    Quote from: cassini

    (1) For me popes define what is heresy and what is not.


    But not pope John Paul II ?

    Quote from: cassini

    (2) The true facts of the Galileo case are found in the secret archives of the Church, not on websites.


    So you went to Rome and went into the Vatican library?

    Quote from: cassini

    (3) The decree defining a fixed sun as formal heresy was declared by Pope Paul v in 1616.


    NOT TRUE !  It was not a declaration of formal heresy.  It merely said Galileo was
    suspected of heresy.  This is definitely NOT an infallible statement of a pope.

    Below is the wording, found here:
    http://www.geocentrismdebunked.org/copernicanism-is-never-declared-to-be-formally-heretical-in-the-1633-decree/

    "We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters
    adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of
    this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held
    the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is
    the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is
    not the center of the world; ..."

    I also found this here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

    "the Church has taken various steps to reverse its opposition to Galileo's conclusions. In 1757,
    Galileo's "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" was removed from the Index,"

    and this here:
    http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/31/world/after-350-years-vatican-says-galileo-was-right-it-moves.html

    "More than 350 years after the Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo, Pope John Paul II
    is poised to rectify one of the Church's most infamous wrongs -- the persecution of the Italian
    astronomer and physicist for proving the Earth moves around the Sun."

    and this at: http://drbo.org/catechism.htm#lesson12

    "6.  Is not the Bible statement that the sun stood still in the heavens (Jos.  10, 13) an example
    of obvious error?

    No, we must remember that the Bible was written in every-day language of the time, not in
    scientific terms.  Even to this day, for example, we speak of sunset even though the sun is not
    setting anywhere and we know that the Earth is orbiting around the Sun and not vice-versa."

    Quote from: cassini

    (4) The mere fact that it is recorded in the Scriptures makes it a matter of faith. Three encyclicals on Scripture confirm every word of Scripture is inspired by God.


    But Catholics must believe the interpretation as defined by the Church.  And the theory that
    the Earth orbits has never been defined as formal heresy.  

    Despite the claim of Geocentrists, it is now a proven fact of science that the Earth orbits
    the Sun.   And I will not discuss Geocentrism in this discussion of Maria Valtorta

    Quote from: cassini

    (6) Do you not know that or believe that? Is that itself not a dogma? Why then fall for the lies
    of websites and seek the truth of your faith? Have you no CATHOLIC INSTINCTS?


    Geocentrism is definitely NOT a dogma of the Catholic Church !!!

    Is it your Catholic instinct which makes you a die-hard Geocentrists ?

    Quote from: cassini

    (7) PapaL DECREES DEFINING HERESY CANNOT BE OVERTURNED.


    Except that Geocentrism is NOT a papal decree.  

    I'm not going to discuss this point anymore.  I know you don't agree with me.

    So, then in your case ... don't read the Poem Of The Man-God.  

    But let those people who know that the Earth orbits the Sun read it.



    I have known for a long time that to break free from the magic of Newton's heliocentrism is virtually impossible for those with closed minds. But forums are read by others and they are the ones that I write for, just to show that most Galileans like yourself haven't a Catholic leg to stand on.

    As I said, neither you nor your favourite website authors decide the authority of the 1616 decree. In your case you do not know what decree we are talking about, nor that you confirm for all the 1616 decree was heresy.

    Quote from: cassini

    (3) The decree defining a fixed sun as formal heresy was declared by Pope Paul v in 1616.

    NOT TRUE !  It was not a declaration of formal heresy.  It merely said Galileo was suspected of heresy.  This is definitely NOT an infallible statement of a pope.


    First of all what you say above happened in 1633 and was not the 1616 decree that defined formal heresy. Second how can you deny it was heresy when you show everyone Galileo was found suspect of HERESY.

    You cannot be found guilty of suspicion of heresy if there was no heresy to begin with.

    Nuff said.

    Offline apollo

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    Maria Valtortas Poem Of The Man-God
    « Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 01:27:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: cassini

    Nuff said.


    I agree with that.