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Offline Matthew

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Making sedevacantism into a religion
« on: May 29, 2017, 06:05:57 PM »
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  • Do you realize that there are some Sedevacantists who consider all other Traditional Catholics to be non-Catholic? They really consider themselves to be in a different religion. Not compared to the Conciliar Church, mind you (for which an argument could certainly be made!) but compared with SSPX, Resistance, and any other non-Sedevacantist group.

    I just got an "unsubscribe" request today for my Gregorian chant CD business. His reason for unsubscribing?


    Quote
    "Sede vacante"

    Here is my response:

    Can I ask how a piece of traditional, pre-Vatican II Gregorian chant can have an opinion or position on the Pope question?
     
     Chant is chant. Do statuary, rosaries, altar linens, and other Catholic merchandise have to be sedevacantist/non-sedevacantist as well?
     
     I bet you $50 you couldn't tell a sedevacantist recording of "Jesu dulcis memoria" from a non-sedevacantist one. :)
     
     It seems to me that certain things, like pre-Vatican II Catholic books (i.e., the old TAN Books) and Gregorian Chant qualify as "neutral" in all the controversies in the Traditional movement...
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 07:05:28 PM »
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  • He wrote back and called me emotional. 

    Here are the relevant excerpts (this guy has been reading too much Traditio. Just listen to him!)


    Quote
    I didn't owe you a reason and you retort with the typical, womanish, irrational flaming.

    Regardless, if it "makes no difference" then what makes you so special? Do you get royalties? What is it? Is chant now only available via you?

    If you would like to proceed as adults, then fine. You can thumb suck on your own.

    Now, what's it to be?

    Please surprise me in taking the "let's try this again rationally option" v "womanish wailing" option.
    [/pre]




    Here is my 2nd response.


    Quote
    I honestly would like to know how Chant can be sedevacantist or non-sedevacantist?
     
     As I see it, it's either true, pre-Vatican II Gregorian chant or it isn't.
     
     I could listen to chant (say, an hour a day for 5 years) from the biggest compromisers (or the most liberal group) in the world of Tradition, and it wouldn't make the first dent in my Faith or my Traditional Catholic position/beliefs.
     
     That's because the various distinctions, positions, etc. within the broader Traditional Movement are irrelevant for things like statues, rosaries, chapel veils, or Gregorian chant.
     
     It's like saying a chair has to be Republican or Democrat.
     
     Where am I wrong in all this? I'm giving reasons and asking rational questions here.
     
     By the way, I'm not saying you have to buy "my chant", but the idea that a sedevacantist has to restrict himself to "sedevacantist chant" is ludicrous. That is the only reason I wrote to you in the first place.
     
     Matthew
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    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 07:05:54 PM »
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  • The two words "sede vacante" doesn't sound to me like he considers only sedevacantists to be Catholic. You really need more evidence than that.

    I consider Novus Ordo, SSPX, FSSP, and generally R&R to be "Catholic", but dangerous Catholics, because they promote a position dangerous to the faith. In many cases, one must treat non-Catholics and dangerous Catholics the same, but depending on the circumstances.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #3 on: May 29, 2017, 07:11:46 PM »
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  • Do you realize that there are some R&R folks here on this forum who consider all sedevacantists to be non-Catholic?

    Of course you have noted that some sedevacantists are schismatic and refuse communion with others though (in my experience) usually it is because they are affiliated with a particular group that has become a cult.  Those sedevacantists wouldn't consider me a Catholic either since I don't attend their list of "approved chapels".  But we should all remember, schism is schism whether the schismatic is a sedevacantist or an R&R aficionado.

    (By the way, I was told that when a Resistance priest--I don't remember the name--was invited to come to central Indiana to give Catechism classes near the new SSPX chapel, the priest at the SSPX chapel told the congregation that it would be sinful for them to attend his classes because he is not in communion with Bishop Fellay.  I was also told that several people who were going to go never showed up.  I never did hear how many classes the priest ended up holding.  Would you think this was schismatic?  I would.  Perhaps we should have a topic about the SSPX setting up their own religion.)

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #4 on: May 29, 2017, 07:12:18 PM »
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  • Exchanges like this one -- notice who is name calling who -- is why sedevacantists are GENERALLY forbidden from most Traditional Catholic boards. 

    There are too many "Traditio wanna-bes" out there. They think bitter = virtue and harsh = zeal, so the more the merrier!

    I'm not talking about the CI population of course -- I'm talking about all those I've had to ban over the years...
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #5 on: May 29, 2017, 07:13:48 PM »
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  • TKGS,

    It applies to all cults, including the SSPX. Sectarianism is sectarianism, and schism is schism. Both sectarianism and schism are my mortal enemy, and the fight against them is my personal crusade. But in this particular thread, for the sake of focus, I'm in the mood to discuss sedevacantists who act like this, inspired by an e-mail I received from a sedevacantist.

    Next week or next month, we can discuss how this applies to the SSPX, and maybe after that we can talk about Fr. Pfeiffer's group.

    It's equally ridiculous and un-Catholic regardless of the group that is guilty of this.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #6 on: May 29, 2017, 07:35:31 PM »
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  • I'm glad that you feel that way.  Since I don't personally know any sedevacantists who think like your correspondent, I'll not be participating further.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #7 on: May 29, 2017, 07:55:07 PM »
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  • I'll never understand those with the personality that thinks it is constructive to bicker and argue constantly, cause divisions and control people.  I guess there are those leaders who want to be the 'big fish in a small pond' and there are followers who want to be part of a group that's 'special'.  


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #8 on: May 29, 2017, 10:54:49 PM »
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  • Exchanges like this one -- notice who is name calling who -- is why sedevacantists are GENERALLY forbidden from most Traditional Catholic boards.

     
    I have always found it interesting that on a sede board like Faithful Catholics, they openly welcome those from the SSPX and Resistance and make no attempts at silencing them. In fact, they encourage them to present their arguments. But they rarely present them because they are immediately devoured like guppies in a shark tank.
     


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #9 on: May 30, 2017, 09:44:18 PM »
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  • Bosco, it's sad that most of your posts are spent on making snide remarks and clever comebacks instead of adding to the conversation...

    Offline insidebaseball

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #10 on: May 30, 2017, 11:20:47 PM »
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  • The hate for the destroyer Francis and his modernist, communist, Masonic friends can easily become a dangerous zeal. For some Love thy neighbor is only telling your neighbor what he did wrong. 


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #11 on: May 31, 2017, 05:33:34 AM »
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  • Bosco, it's sad that most of your posts are spent on making snide remarks and clever comebacks instead of adding to the conversation...

    I don't see anything snide about what Bosco said in this thread. What are you talking about?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #12 on: May 31, 2017, 05:38:51 AM »
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  • The hate for the destroyer Francis and his modernist, communist, Masonic friends can easily become a dangerous zeal. For some Love thy neighbor is only telling your neighbor what he did wrong.

    Does this mean when you when you see on this forum someone who spends a lot of time correcting error (as should be done anyway), that you judge that the person elsewhere in real life must not express his love for his neighbor in any other way than correcting error?  How could you possibly judge that? You don't know how Liberal that sounds. Almost as if you either don't see the multiple errors flowing on this forum, or else you somehow hold a misplaced conviction that one should only correct so many errors and no more!
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline insidebaseball

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #13 on: May 31, 2017, 07:55:36 AM »
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  • That's an equal opportunity statement.  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Making sedevacantism into a religion
    « Reply #14 on: May 31, 2017, 10:08:53 AM »
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  • The hate for the destroyer Francis and his modernist, communist, Masonic friends can easily become a dangerous zeal. For some Love thy neighbor is only telling your neighbor what he did wrong.

    The above is how I would describe most of the sedevacantists on this board, with a couple of exceptions. They tend to be obsessive in pointing out error, as if that's the only thing that matters.

     

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