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Offline Neil Obstat

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Lumen Gentium Annotated - Discussion Thread
« on: September 04, 2013, 12:07:10 PM »
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    From the Library thread started by Matthew:

    Quote from: Matthew


    Dear Publisher,

    For the Greater Honor and Glory of God, Quanta Cura Press is sending you an electronic copy of its recent book, Lumen Gentium Annotated (cover image also enclosed). This book examines the question whether this landmark Vatican II docuмent is in continuity with, or in rupture with, the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church.

    Please feel free to spread around this electronic copy of the book for the greater glory of God. This book is also available on Amazon.com. Please consider arranging and printing a review of this book, if you think that to do so would aid in the fight against modernism and for the salvation of souls. In your kindness and charity, we would appreciate your comments and you bringing to our attention any substantive errors or typos, for correction in any future edition.

    In St. Thomas Aquinas,

    Quanta Cura Press

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Lumen Gentium Annotated - Discussion Thread
    « Reply #1 on: September 04, 2013, 02:10:30 PM »
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    Lumen Gentium Annotated
    © A.D. 2013 Quanta Cura Press©TM



    The first thing that hits me is that this is a great concept.  

    The format looks very good, and the authors have gone to
    obvious diligent effort in putting this together.  And not to be
    overlooked is the fact that it is made available for FREE to
    anyone who is interested.  It seems to me that this last aspect
    SHOULD evoke no small degree of incentive for readers of good
    will, and might likewise evoke a degree of complaisance for
    readers of bad will:  "If they're not going to sell their work, why
    should anyone take them seriously, for it's the same thing as
    saying that they're afraid it WOULDN'T sell, so then why bother
    trying to sell it?"  (I'm not quoting anyone, but giving a possible
    example of how someone of bad will might look at this.)  



    A quick peek turns up the following:

    Quote

    Yet this is how Pope Benedict XVI described some of the

    xiv

    main teachings of Vatican II! Thus, clearly, Vatican II’s
    teachings contain novelties which are plainly not infallible.

    The testimony of Pope Paul VI:

          The new position adopted by the Church with
          regard to the realities of this earth is
          henceforth well known by everyone .... [T]he
          Church agrees to recognize the new principal
          to be put into practice .... [T]he Church agrees
          to recognize the world as ‘self-sufficient’;  she
          does not seek to make the world an instrument
          for her religious ends ....

    August 24, 1969 Declaration of Pope Paul VI, L'Osservatore
    Romano; (emphasis added).

    © 2013 Quanta Cura Press©TM (quantacurapress@gmail.com)
    Available at: scribd.com/doc/158994906 (free) & Amazon.com (sold at cost)



    Do you see the misspelled word?   "The Church agrees to recognize
    the new principal to be put into practice..."  Now, if they're talking
    about a 'new' counterpart to bank interest, or a 'new' chief
    administrator of a school, or the 'new' head of some other sort of
    institution or business enterprise, I can see how they would use the
    word "new principal," but if they're talking about putting into practice
    some dictate or axiom of fundamental formation, then the word
    ought to be "principle."  It's obviously the latter, therefore the
    word is misspelled.  

    Such misspellings reduce the credibility of the work.  

    Since this is a quotation of another work, perhaps the source,
    L'Osservatore Romano, misspelled the word.  If so, this edition
    in quoting it, should make note of the fact and provide the proper
    spelling.


    The treatment of this preliminary topic, the PREFACE of no less than 30
    (thirty) pages (in Roman Numerals: xxx), is cogent and powerful.  At a
    first look I see nothing missing.  It is in a manner of speaking, a "book
    in itself."  Whereas many readers may be wont to skip the Preface and
    get right into the meat of the book, it seems to me that one would only
    do himself a disservice here by skipping this Preface, since it lays the
    groundwork for the entire book of nearly 400 pages.  It is no small
    wonder that it is titled "The Purpose of This Book."  

    I would only regret that the word "teleology" is not employed
    somewhere in it, for teleology is one of the abandoned segments of
    philosophy of these latter days, and it is so ignored because to the
    Modernists, it represents such an inconvenient and bothersome detail.  
    When the purpose per se of anything in particular and of everything in
    general can be IGNORED (as, for example, by NOT reading this Preface),
    then the progress of corruption can more easily proceed apace, to
    destroy that which has been built up over the past 20 centuries, or 2
    millenia, take your pick.


    I found this section especially helpful and impressive:

    Quote

    One Final Objection before we begin
    Examining the Text of Lumen Gentium


    One might think, either through ignorance or false humility,
    that because we are not the pope (or at least a bishop), we
    should not “set ourselves up in judgment” whether the
    conciliar hierarchy is teaching the truth or not, or whether
    the conciliar hierarchy’s teachings are consistent with the
    traditional teaching of the Church. One might (wrongly)
    think that, to do so, shows a “Protestant mentality”.
    However, this view could not be further from the truth!
    This ignorance or false humility is contrary to the consistent
    teaching of the Church. This could be shown by citing many
    Catholic authorities. Here is one:


    The book then proceeds to exemplify the principle at hand.
    (Note: not the 'principal' at hand!)



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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Lumen Gentium Annotated - Discussion Thread
    « Reply #2 on: September 04, 2013, 08:03:51 PM »
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    In passing, since this is a Resistance website and Forum, we ought not
    miss the allusion found plain as day for those with eyes to see, in this
    section I last quoted above:

    Quote

    One Final Objection before we begin
    Examining the Text of Lumen Gentium


    One might think, either through ignorance or false humility,
    that because we are not the pope (or at least a bishop), we
    should not “set ourselves up in judgment” whether the
    conciliar hierarchy is teaching the truth or not, or whether
    the conciliar hierarchy’s teachings are consistent with the
    traditional teaching of the Church. One might (wrongly)
    think that, to do so, shows a “Protestant mentality”.
    However, this view could not be further from the truth!
    This ignorance or false humility is contrary to the consistent
    teaching of the Church. This could be shown by citing many
    Catholic authorities. Here is one:



    For as this principle (not 'principal') applies to our current SSPX crisis,
    it should not be too difficult to imagine the Resistance version of the
    above paragraph, my recommendation for which is exemplified below.
    Remember, the book, Lumen Gentium Annotated, is not
    specifically 'Resistance'-oriented, but is framed as nothing less
    than a Catholic outlook toward a proper understanding of how
    the Faith views Lumen Gentium!
    But for us Resistance members,
    we can take a lesson and see, how this very same outlook, in
    principle (not 'principal') applies to the current SSPX crisis, nay, how
    the SSPX crisis is properly viewed as a microcosm of the greater one,
    the Catholic Faith versus Lumen Gentium!


    My recommendation:

    One objection before we begin examining the text of
    [     fill-in-the-blank*      ], or Lumen Gentium, for that matter:


    One might think, either through ignorance or false humility,
    that because we are not the pope, nor are we Bishop Fellay,
    nor Bishop de Galarreta nor +de Mallerais, we should not “set
    ourselves up in judgment” whether the conciliar hierarchy or
    any of these “other 3” bishops are teaching the truth or not,
    or whether theirs or the conciliar hierarchy’s teachings are
    consistent with the traditional teaching of the Church, which
    is one and the same as the traditions approved in saner
    centuries and handed down to us by Archbishop Marcel
    Lefebvre.  One might (wrongly) think that, to do so, shows
    a “Protestant mentality,” or, as +Fellay has accused us, a
    “sedevacantist” or “disobedient mentality” -- which is the
    same accusation, in the main.  However, this view could not
    be further from the truth!  This ignorance or false humility is
    contrary to the consistent teaching of the Church. This could
    be shown by citing many Catholic authorities.

    Here is one:  ...

    *Fill-in-the-blank substitution options:  
    the AFD,
    the Interview of +Fellay with CNS of May, 2012,
    the General Chapter 6 Conditions, or
    the Silver Anniversary Re-Declaration of June 27th, 2013 (SARD).




    [Now, if you're not interested yet in what the example the
    authors provide to show how The Resistance (effecitvely) is in
    the right and in accord with Apostolic Tradition, I'm sorry, but
    there isn't much more I can do for you! . . . . . . .  HAHAHA]




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    Offline Cathedra

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    Lumen Gentium Annotated - Discussion Thread
    « Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 12:04:33 AM »
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  • Are Vatican 2, John 23, Paul 6, JP1&2, Benedict 16 and Jorge, Catholic?

    Do you hold the same faith as Jorge?

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Lumen Gentium Annotated - Discussion Thread
    « Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 08:27:43 AM »
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    At the risk of stating the obvious, I'd like to state the obvious:  

    This book goes right to the crux of the crisis in the SSPX.  It is all
    about the REASONS why Vat.II is not Catholic, which are very
    important things to know.  Now, if you'd prefer to smugly sit back
    in your ivory tower and hurl epithets of derision at all comers, suit
    yourself.  But if you'd like to be prepared for a substantive
    conversation with someone coming from a different religion, such
    as a NovusOrdo parish (!), then you ought to do some homework.

    Think of it as doing your daily duty of PENANCE.  

    Ed. from TheRecusant said it very well on page 19 of the recent
    issue #9:  


    The article follows the SARD, and it's headlined:  

    "What's wrong with Bishop Fellay's 25th Anniversary
    Declaration?"


    He wastes no time answering the question, in his admirably
    modulated, and venerable British style.  There is a certain beauty
    and grace given to any culture when it is in conformity with God's
    will, and it is no less true for the British.  TheRecusant is a joy to
    read.

    He begins:

    "What indeed.  The answer, alas, is that there is quite a lot wrong
    with it, though the task of demonstrating exactly what is wrong is
    not an easy one..."  

    Further on down the page, he has the part that applies to this
    topic, this thread, this point I'd like to make, invoking our
    awareness of the answers as a PENANCE that we take on with
    joy, with gratitude, with recognition of the fact that God put
    you and me in THIS CENTURY for a reason,
    that we may
    have the chance to do what is right, to stand up for the Faith,
    and by accepting this PENANCE of our daily duty, which includes
    learning about the REASONS WHY Lumen Gentium is NOT Catholic
    (instead of lazily hurling blanket statements from afar to
    effectively defend our own ignorance and intellectually slothful
    complaisance),
    we are thereby doing God's will, and taking our
    place in the lineup of those who rise to the occasion of our time:  
    to defend the Faith.


    Ed. goes on:

    "Looking closer, it does seem that the text has been prepared with
    a very thick layer of 'Traditional-sounding' rhetoric designed to put
    the readers' critical faculties to sleep and obscure the various
    weaknesses and loopholes also present.  Those who have done
    the penance of studying the deception practiced at Vatican
    II will recognise immediately what is happening here.
     

    "Texts at Vatican II were prepared in precisely this way:  lots of
    traditional-sounding language for most of the docuмent, and then
    buried within it a deliberate and fatal flaw, a loophole which allows
    the whole rest of the docuмent to be undone... For example, the
    docuмent on the liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium) has many
    wonderful, Tradtioinal-sounding provisions... [a]nd yet somewhere,
    mixed in with the rest, it also contains one little part allowing
    changes and 'updating' to take place.  The rest is history..."



    Yes, the rest is history.  And at your and my particular judgment,
    God is going to ask us what we did about it, how we defended the
    Faith.  And if our answer is that we sat smugly in our ivory tower
    hurling bland epithets at all-comers, it's not going to be very
    impressive.  

    Something to think about....................



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    Offline Cathedra

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    Lumen Gentium Annotated - Discussion Thread
    « Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 09:11:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .


    At the risk of stating the obvious, I'd like to state the obvious:  

    This book goes right to the crux of the crisis in the SSPX.  It is all
    about the REASONS why Vat.II is not Catholic, which are very
    important things to know.  Now, if you'd prefer to smugly sit back
    in your ivory tower and hurl epithets of derision at all comers, suit
    yourself.  But if you'd like to be prepared for a substantive
    conversation with someone coming from a different religion, such
    as a NovusOrdo parish (!), then you ought to do some homework.

    Think of it as doing your daily duty of PENANCE.  

    Ed. from TheRecusant said it very well on page 19 of the recent
    issue #9:  


    The article follows the SARD, and it's headlined:  

    "What's wrong with Bishop Fellay's 25th Anniversary
    Declaration?"


    He wastes no time answering the question, in his admirably
    modulated, and venerable British style.  There is a certain beauty
    and grace given to any culture when it is in conformity with God's
    will, and it is no less true for the British.  TheRecusant is a joy to
    read.

    He begins:

    "What indeed.  The answer, alas, is that there is quite a lot wrong
    with it, though the task of demonstrating exactly what is wrong is
    not an easy one..."  

    Further on down the page, he has the part that applies to this
    topic, this thread, this point I'd like to make, invoking our
    awareness of the answers as a PENANCE that we take on with
    joy, with gratitude, with recognition of the fact that God put
    you and me in THIS CENTURY for a reason,
    that we may
    have the chance to do what is right, to stand up for the Faith,
    and by accepting this PENANCE of our daily duty, which includes
    learning about the REASONS WHY Lumen Gentium is NOT Catholic
    (instead of lazily hurling blanket statements from afar to
    effectively defend our own ignorance and intellectually slothful
    complaisance),
    we are thereby doing God's will, and taking our
    place in the lineup of those who rise to the occasion of our time:  
    to defend the Faith.


    Ed. goes on:

    "Looking closer, it does seem that the text has been prepared with
    a very thick layer of 'Traditional-sounding' rhetoric designed to put
    the readers' critical faculties to sleep and obscure the various
    weaknesses and loopholes also present.  Those who have done
    the penance of studying the deception practiced at Vatican
    II will recognise immediately what is happening here.
     

    "Texts at Vatican II were prepared in precisely this way:  lots of
    traditional-sounding language for most of the docuмent, and then
    buried within it a deliberate and fatal flaw, a loophole which allows
    the whole rest of the docuмent to be undone... For example, the
    docuмent on the liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concilium) has many
    wonderful, Tradtioinal-sounding provisions... [a]nd yet somewhere,
    mixed in with the rest, it also contains one little part allowing
    changes and 'updating' to take place.  The rest is history..."



    Yes, the rest is history.  And at your and my particular judgment,
    God is going to ask us what we did about it, how we defended the
    Faith.  And if our answer is that we sat smugly in our ivory tower
    hurling bland epithets at all-comers, it's not going to be very
    impressive.  

    Something to think about....................





    So you admit Vatican 2 is not Catholic.

    Well, so how was Paul 6 Catholic? And how have his "successors", who have relentlessly implemented the non-Catholic Vatican 2, been Catholic themselves?

    And if these "popes" have not been Catholic, how is the "church" they head, the Catholic Church? How is the Novus Ordo the Catholic Church?

    And if all this is not Catholic, why has the sspx obstinately insisted in calling it Catholic and condemned sedevacantism all these decades?

    What epithets are you talking about?

    As for penance, how about being HONEST? How about admitting the truth? How about admitting you're wrong? How about getting rid of your wilful ignorance and honestly looking at all the evidence?

    Spare me your eloquent speech.

    Yes if all you did was sit smugly in your ivory tower hurling bland epithets at all-comers and obstinately refusing to acknowledge the truth, i agree it's not going to be very impressive.  

    By the way you didn't answer if you had the same faith as Jorge.