Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: roscoe on September 06, 2009, 10:59:16 PM
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Lover Of Truth says that someone can be a perverted sodomite and still be the True Pope.
Is there anyone that agrees with this?
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BTW-- the allegation that Alex VI participated in orgies at the Vatican are a fraud.
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Can someone teach that this is alright and still be pope. No.
Can someone fall into heinous, even repeated sins, and still be pope, so long as these are not heresy, schism or apostasy?
Yes.
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You forgot blasphemy and/or infidelity.
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Can someone teach that this is alright and still be pope. No.
Can someone fall into heinous, even repeated sins, and still be pope, so long as these are not heresy, schism or apostasy?
Yes.
CM is saying( apparently) that a Pope cannot TEACH sodomy is OK and still be Pope-- we agree here.
The $ 64,000 question though is can a person BE a sodomite and still BE Pope? This is impossible as he would lose his office upon consummating the peversion.
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A legitimately elected Pope would lose his office upon performing any sɛҳuąƖ act.
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A legitimately elected Pope would lose his office upon performing any sɛҳuąƖ act.
Errors of John Hus
Condemned at the Council of Constance, 1414-1418
Denzinger 646 20. If the pope is wicked and especially if he is foreknown, than as Judas, the Apostle, he is of the devil, a thief, and a son of perdition, and he is not the head of the holy militant Church, since he is not a member of it.
Denzinger 656 30. No one is a civil master, no one is a prelate, no one is a bishop while he is in mortal sin.
Roscoe, a wicked member of the clergy, even if he be pope does not lose his office or cease to be a member of the Church.
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Constance and Basel are no councils at all. True-- some of the things enacted by these assemblies were later declared valid but I doubt that it is the above.
Has anyone ever heard of a defrocked priest? Are you saying there is no such thing?
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A legitimately elected Pope would lose his office upon performing any sɛҳuąƖ act.
Where do you get that idea?
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Lover Of Truth says that someone can be a perverted sodomite and still be the True Pope.
Is there anyone that agrees with this?
Where does the Church teach that the pope loses his office due to this?
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Could trad123 or radtrad give an example of an action that would cause a priest of whatever cast to lose his office. I did not say that clergy committing a sɛҳuąƖ act lose their membership in the Church( unless they are unrepentant)-- only that they lose their authority as Priest.
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Could trad123 or radtrad give an example of an action that would cause a priest of whatever cast to lose his office. I did not say that clergy committing a sɛҳuąƖ act lose their membership in the Church( unless they are unrepentant)-- only that they lose their authority as Priest.
The burden of proof is on you! You are arguing in the affirmative on the subject. Rules of debate dictate that you prove your point.
Is the priest open to losing his office or are you saying that he automatically loses his office?
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A matter of semantics here. True-- it would take a legit Church Authority to command that the priest be defrocked.
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Some people are rather ignorant and like to display their ignorance to the world.
The Holy Ghost protects the pope from erring not from sinning.
Does he lose his office if he has an impure thought?
What if he materbates?
If that is the case how do we know anyone was pope and held his office including Saint Peter.
You are wrong. Admit it or show Church teaching to the contrary.
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Have you ever heard of a priest who has been de-frocked?
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Boniface 7 was declared an anti-pope by Pius X because he committed murder. Was this a legitimate act by the Pope?
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IOW-- Boniface 7 committed a mortal sin. In spite of the action of St Pius, do you still consider Boniface 7(VII?) a True Pope?
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"...no Spaniard worships the Jews..." I have to stay away from overexcitable blanket statements like that.
There are Spanish witches and many Spaniards who fought on the Communist side and I'm sure many Spaniards who were more than sympathetic to Jews. But I have as yet received no proof that Boniface VIII was one of them.
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Acc to prof Chadwick and the links provided by CM, it was Pius X that declared Boniface 7 as an anti-pope. Boniface 6, John 16 and Benedict 10 were also defrocked by St Pius.
The symbol on the back of the chair of Boniface is blasphemous plain and simple. A Pope cannot commit blasphemy and be a True Pope.
A 666 hexagam is blasphemous to a Christian just as a cross would be to a Jew. In case you don't get it yet, the two religions are not the same.
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Re Dante-- there are parts of his works that are admired by non-Catholics just as the same is true of Thomas A Kempis( Gerson) Immitation of Christ. Madame De Stael was a proponent of the latter.
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... proponent of the latter just as Pius XII was. This does not make Pius XII a communist revolutionary because he read a book that she read.
Fr Parsons in his Studies In Church History v2 has an excellent article refuting the charge of heresy againt Dante.
And Dante is hardly the only person accusing Boniface as an anti-pope.
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As has been brought up in my Boniface anti-pope discussion, the numerous charges against him are set out in Sr Mary Mildred's Conflict Between Boniface And Philip. She is a partisan of Boniface but does not fail to perform her duty as a historian.
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BTW-- the charges against Boniface are numerous, detailed, disgusting and backed up by SWORN WITNESSES. It seems there are those here who have convicted Card Rampolla and there was never even one word of sworn testimony taken against him.
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Re Benedict VII-- there were most likely a few in the past who did under stand that he was the true Pope all along.
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Acc to prof Chadwick and the links provided by CM, it was Pius X that declared Boniface 7 as an anti-pope. Boniface 6, John 16 and Benedict 10 were also defrocked by St Pius.
Excuse me?
The link I provided did not say at all that it was Pope Pius X who made these declarations.
Here they are again, for the humiliation of your prevarication.
Boniface VII (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02661c.htm)
Boniface VI (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02661b.htm)
John XVI (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08428a.htm)
Benedict X (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02429b.htm)
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What if he materbates?
If that is the case how do we know anyone was pope and held his office including Saint Peter.
Sacrilege!
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Boniface 7 was declared an anti-pope by Pius X because he committed murder. Was this a legitimate act by the Pope?
Who did he murder Roscoe? Anybody special? Maybe someone, whose person is protected by a Divine anathema?
Just curious.
As far as I understand it, you can't even slap the pope without incurring latae sententiae.
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Acc to prof Chadwick and the links provided by CM, it was Pius X that declared Boniface 7 as an anti-pope. Boniface 6, John 16 and Benedict 10 were also defrocked by St Pius.
Excuse me?
The link I provided did not say at all that it was Pope Pius X who made these declarations.
Here they are again, for the humiliation of your prevarication.
Boniface VII (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02661c.htm)
Boniface VI (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02661b.htm)
John XVI (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08428a.htm)
Benedict X (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02429b.htm)
My recollection of your orig post on the subject is that the anti-popes were declared so in yrs when Pius X was Pope. The yr mentioned in your prev post I believe was 1907 and that is when Pius X was Pope and would collaborate Prof Chadwick.
The links u have posted now are not the same ones as I remember.
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Boniface 7 was declared an anti-pope by Pius X because he committed murder. Was this a legitimate act by the Pope?
Who did he murder Roscoe? Anybody special? Maybe someone, whose person is protected by a Divine anathema?
Just curious.
As far as I understand it, you can't even slap the pope without incurring latae sententiae.
Acc to Prof Chadwick he strangeled the Emperor's Ambassador.
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Just to clarify, my point is we do not know who has impure thoughts or the private sins of anyone. Not that Saint Peter masturbated. They claim that any Pope that commits a sɛҳuąƖ act cannot be Pope. They cannot even grasp the most basic theological concept. What is a sexaul act? I guess it depends on what is is.
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A thought is not an action. I believe there is a Biblical phrase.... by their fruits you shall know them.
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Just to clarify, my point is we do not know who has impure thoughts or the private sins of anyone. Not that Saint Peter masturbated. They claim that any Pope that commits a sɛҳuąƖ act cannot be Pope. They cannot even grasp the most basic theological concept. What is a sexaul act? I guess it depends on what is is.
What is is? Where have we heard that sophistry b4?
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LoT's premise seems to be that it is just fine to be a hypocrite. Do as I say-- not as I do. OK I guess if ones phiosophy is that all religions are the same.
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Boniface 7 was declared an anti-pope by Pius X because he committed murder. Was this a legitimate act by the Pope?
Who did he murder Roscoe? Anybody special? Maybe someone, whose person is protected by a Divine anathema?
Just curious.
As far as I understand it, you can't even slap the pope without incurring latae sententiae.
Acc to Prof Chadwick he strangeled the Emperor's Ambassador.
Where can we read about this for ourselves?
Again, where do you get the idea that a behavior such as those you have mentioned causes one to lose his office? I don't think that important question has been answered. Those men are certainly "bad" men, immoral men, but that doesn't mean they lose their office. I could be wrong, but I would like to see where.
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The sources for the Boniface saga have been given repeatedly-- use the search function.
YES IT DOES MEAN THAT THEY LOSE THEIR OFFICE UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS-- YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
Do you deny that there is such a thing as an anti-pope?
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The sources for the Boniface saga have been given repeatedly-- use the search function.
Roscoe, You can't assume that people are following every single thread you have posted on this subject. I did do as you said and "used the search function". But it wouldn't kill you to post the links again, as this is a new discussion. According to Chadwick, "Pius X had to get rid of four popes from the past" though he doesn't give much more on this than that.
YES IT DOES MEAN THAT THEY LOSE THEIR OFFICE UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS-- YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
I get bored with this sort of "you are wrong" discussions. I am open to being corrected. Show me a Church docuмent, quote from a Father/Doctor, Catechism, theology manual etc. that backs up your position.
Do you deny that there is such a thing as an anti-pope?
No, I do not deny such a thing.
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I have not posted any links-- only a ref to Prof Chadwick's book. It is CM who posted the orig links collaborating the info in the book. He has now resorted to a bait and switch by posting other links that are not the same.
If you understand that there is such a thing as an anti-pope, then there must be some way to determine this outside of our own personal opinions. The way this is done is through the PRIMACY OF ST PETER.
The fact is that St Pius X declared Boniface 6 and 7( as well as 2 others) top be anti-popes. I do not question his authority to do so.
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"I guess it depends on what is is" was a joke. Should have put a smiley.
Is anyone at all out there aware that Popes who were supposed to be celebate had mistresses and children while validly and legally holding the thrown.
People get too scandalized when confronted with the facts. This is why some priests hold back on some truth so as not to bruise the wounded reed.
"A pope can sin?!?!" Never!!!!!
Okay bud, have you gotten a glimps of Santa yet.
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I have to add that a fruitful debate on SV cannot even begin unless all involved can hold to the basic premise that a Pope can and does sin.
These People don't think a Pope can break commandments 2 - 10 but if they repeatedly break the first and most important one there like, "Well, hmm, I wonder why he did that. Oh well, he's still Pope or the gates of hell have prevailed."
Anyone realize that Ratzinger allows ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to join the seminary if they have not been active in their tendency for 3 years before joining?
Sure, let them hang out with men all the time, and change and shower with them and teach little children and preach on morality from the pulpit. No big deal. We "love" = tolerate everybody and thier evil actions by covering them up and even promoting them from doing so.
Even the people that believe that no Pope can commit a sɛҳuąƖ act and still be Pope should at least be leary of that if they are not concerned that he teaches heresy and engages in heretical acts.
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"I guess it depends on what is is" was a joke. Should have put a smiley.
Is anyone at all out there aware that Popes who were supposed to be celebate had mistresses and children while validly and legally holding the thrown.
People get too scandalized when confronted with the facts. This is why some priests hold back on some truth so as not to bruise the wounded reed.
"A pope can sin?!?!" Never!!!!!
Okay bud, have you gotten a glimps of Santa yet.
2 or 3 Popes had children from b4 they were ordained-- I am not aware of any who sired offspring while they were Pope. I am even somewhat cautious about believeing the Alex VI mistress story. What other Pope has been accused of having a mistress?
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BTW LoT-- I am not a believer in the myth called 'sede vacantism'--- there is no such thing and therefore nothing to debate.
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We also have to remember that there is a difference between one who sins and realizes that what he is doing is wrong and one who sins and does not admit or even believe what he does is wrong. Also, the difference between one who sins and knows it is wrong but does not repent or seek forgiveness and try not to do it again from one who does.
If nothing else I hope people realize a valid pope can sin.
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This is obvious LoT as why would a Pope need a cofessor if this were not the case. Tell us something we don't know.
I would like U or anyone else to show a history book, Papal Allocution, theological text or any other evidence that there even is such a thing as a 'sede vacantist' or 'sede vacantism'.
In all the past 10 yrs of studying Church history, I have never run across either term until D Hobson once asked me on the phone if I was one.
My first reaction was one of dismay as I immediately wondered how Pope Gregory XVII can be Pope and the chair of Peter to be vacant at the same time.
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There was a state of sedevacantism between the election of each pope, it is a latin phrase that merely states the fact that the chair or seat is vacant.
Unfortuneately I do not have time to enter into numerous tedious arguements that don't get anywhere. I'm surprised that no one else on this forum has helped you.
If you are of good will motivated solely by the seeking of truth I know some on this blog can help you.
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Roscoe never replies to any objections.
He keeps saying in this thread that Boniface VII is an anti-Pope and that St. Pius X said so. Actually he was always an anti-Pope. He had an invalid election and probably murdered Boniface VI who was the real Pope.
So whether he continued murdering once he was in office makes no difference. He was not a real Pope to begin with.
What is the relevance of bringing this up?
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Roscoe never replies to any objections.
Indeed. Troubling, troubling.
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There was a state of sedevacantism between the election of each pope, it is a latin phrase that merely states the fact that the chair or seat is vacant.
Unfortuneately I do not have time to enter into numerous tedious arguements that don't get anywhere. I'm surprised that no one else on this forum has helped you.
If you are of good will motivated solely by the seeking of truth I know some on this blog can help you.
You have made an allegation that there have been Popes who have had mistresses and children while validly and legally holding the throne. There is no need to engage in tedious arguments-- just a need to supply the names of those Popes and sources of the charge. i am assumong you have learned this from somewhere.
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Roscoe never replies to any objections.
He keeps saying in this thread that Boniface VII is an anti-Pope and that St. Pius X said so. Actually he was always an anti-Pope. He had an invalid election and probably murdered Boniface VI who was the real Pope.
So whether he continued murdering once he was in office makes no difference. He was not a real Pope to begin with.
What is the relevance of bringing this up?
Boniface 7 may have been thought by some to a be an anti-pope but was not officially declared so until St Pius X. Boniface 6 and 7 lived 100 yrs apart and it is quite impossible for 7 to have murdered 6.
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I will have to get out my copy of von Pastor to be sure but even the children of Alex VI were born b4 he was Pope-- although he most likely was still a priest of some degree. Wiki is of course not always reliable but it does say the orgies were exagerated. Pius IV and Paul III had children but b4 they were ordained.
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Vols 5 and 6 of von Pastor( Alex VI vols) can be accessed at Wikipedia.
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It 's really a chore to scroll down v5 all the way to p375 so I will have to postpone reading my new copy of Hitler's Personal Security by Pedro Hoffman and dig out v5. I will report the on the specifics of the domestic troubles of Alex VI re: his children-- at least acc to von Pastor.
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All of his children were born b4 he was Pope. My statements re: Alex Vi in the past have only been to say that I have been able to rehabilitate his character to some extent. He is still the Renaissance Pope but I don't put him as low as the Medici( although the personal morals of the Medici far outshone Alex). But I agree and Popes can sin and still be Popes.
Your attitude however seems to be that we are to accept immorality among Popes as an everyday occurance while historically this is far from the truth. I cannot find a Pope who had a child as a Pope. Alex is the only one I have ever found who even had one while prev ordained.
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There probably are some anti-popes.
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If you are tired of me telling you you're wrong, will you at least listen to Pope Martin V?
If the pope is wicked, and especially if he is foreknown to damnation, then he is a devil like Judas the apostle, a thief and a son of perdition and is not the head of the holy Church militant since he is not even a member of it.
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Do you think Alex Vi is an anti-pope?
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Nope.
They point out that this opinion was approved by our predecessors of happy memory, the Roman pontiffs Paul II, Sixtus IV, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI and Julius II, as well as by saints and persons devoted to God and held in high esteem for their holiness, and has been preached in sermons about the gospel truth.
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If you are tired of me telling you you're wrong, will you at least listen to Pope Martin V?
If the pope is wicked, and especially if he is foreknown to damnation, then he is a devil like Judas the apostle, a thief and a son of perdition and is not the head of the holy Church militant since he is not even a member of it.
:confused1:
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The pope can be a sinner, even a very great sinner, and still be pope.
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Very great sinner is a subjective state. Do you consider Alex VI as a 'very great sinner'? If not who would be a Pope that qualifies? I consider Urban 6 and Boniface to be anti-popes as U well know. Ciao