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Author Topic: Looking Into Sedevacantism  (Read 4667 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2018, 10:52:12 PM »
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  • As for a pope who becomes a heretic, they would argue that by the public heresy itself, the pope loses his office.

    Exactly. It must be obvious though, that the publicly uttered heresy was not just an error due to ignorance. The offender must know of the dogma he is contradicting. But this is minor detail, since it is absurd to assume that the extraordinary Magisterium, a pope with more than 2400 bishops united on an ecuмenical council, are not aware of Catholic doctrine. Also, the form of uttering their heresies was most solemn. If Martin Luther had seen this robber council, he would have looked green with envy.

    Apostates, heretics, and schismatics are not Catholics, they are outside of the church. No sentence is required.

    Even Abp. Lefebvre was not excommunicated by JPII (not excommunicated from the conciliar sect). JPII did not convict him. Rather, he declared that Lefebvre (and the others) already had been excommunicated ipso facto (by the fact itself; the fact being the schismatic act of ordaining bishops without approval from JPII; schismatic with respect to the conciliar sect).

    Common sense dictates, that a heretic is not a Catholic, since a Catholic confesses the true faith undefiled.
    Common sense also dictates, that someone, who is not member of the Church, cannot be head. My current signature has Leo XIII. teaching:

    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Both mentioned common sense judgements are also found in 1917 canon law. Apostates, heretics, and schismatics are defectors losing membership, and defectors lose offices.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Beaumont

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #31 on: August 30, 2018, 11:03:26 PM »
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  • Quote
    'Dom Guéranger, Abbot of the Solesmes Benedictines, said on the matter, “The real Sixth Council, the one to which the Roman Pontiff gave the necessary and canonical form, the one which requires the respect of the faithful, condemned Honorius only as an unfaithful guardian of the deposit of the faith, but not as having himself been an adherent of heresy. Justice and truth forbid us from going beyond that.”

    https://novusordowatch.org/2017/07/case-of-pope-honorius/


    Offline Beaumont

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #32 on: August 30, 2018, 11:18:17 PM »
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  • Also, the only controversy with Pope Honorius was the wording of one letter to Sergius not even on the level of an encyclical. 

    Francis speaks error on an almost daily basis and has officially incorporated heresy into the AAS and catechism.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #33 on: August 30, 2018, 11:32:21 PM »
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  • The enemies of the Papacy have always intended to bring up the case of Pope Honorius, in their abhorrence towards Papal Infallibility. Thankfully, they have been for the most part unsuccessful. Proof of this were the Vatican I definitions.  

    From the CE:

    Quote
    Pope Honorius

    The charge against Pope Honorius is a double one: that, when appealed to in the Monothelite controversy, he actually taught the Monothelite heresy in his two letters to Sergius; and that he was condemned as a heretic by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council, the decrees of which were approved by Leo II. But in the first place it is quite clear from the tone and terms of these letters that, so far from intending to give any final, or ex cathedra, decision on the doctrinal question at issue, Honorius merely tried to allay the rising bitterness of the controversy by securing silence. In the next place, taking the letters as they stand, the very most that can be clearly and incontrovertibly deduced from them is, that Honorius was not a profound or acute theologian, and that he allowed himself to be confused and misled by the wily Sergius as to what the issue really was and too readily accepted the latter's misrepresentation of his opponents' position, to the effect that the assertion of two wills in Christ meant two contrary or discordant wills.

    Finally, in reference to the condemnation of Honorius as a heretic, it is to be remembered that there is no ecuмenical sentence affirming the fact either that Honorius's letters to Sergius contain heresy, or that they were intended to define the question with which they deal. The sentence passed by the fathers of the council has ecuмenical value only in so far as it was approved by Leo II; but, in approving the condemnation of Honorius, his successor adds the very important qualification that he is condemned, not for the doctrinal reason that he taught heresy, but on the moral ground that he was wanting in the vigilance expected from him in his Apostolic office and thereby allowed a heresy to make headway which he should have crushed in its beginnings.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Beaumont

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #34 on: September 09, 2018, 06:22:34 PM »
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  • In the eyes of outsiders it seems like the sedevacantist view could be seen as a desperate attempt to save a defected Church. 

    How could a Church founded by Christ transform into an anti-church? 

    And only a few enlightened faithful be able to realize it?

    Christ would then have allowed 99.9% of his faithful to be deceived.

    It would also set a precedent that at any time Christ's Church could morph into an anti-church in the future.

    In addition, it would set a precedent that we can't know if a claimant/ occupant of the chair of Peter is a true pope without each of us privately discerning whether the claimant spoke public heresy. 



    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #35 on: September 09, 2018, 09:19:21 PM »
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  • In the eyes of outsiders it seems like the sedevacantist view could be seen as a desperate attempt to save a defected Church.

    How could a Church founded by Christ transform into an anti-church?

    It was prophesized. The apostel Paul speaks about it in 2 Thess 2. The apostel John speaks about it, the keyword is Antichrist. Our Lord speaks about it in Mt 24,15 (and Lk and Mk). A great apostasy is expected. And a great apostasy has happened.


    And only a few enlightened faithful be able to realize it?

    Yes. Antichrist will deceive. Whether we're at the end now or not yet. In the end Antichrist will deceive. There will be only a scattered handful of faithful left. Will the Lord find faith when he returns? Will the time have to be shortened to prevent that even the elect will be deceived, if that was possible?


    Christ would then have allowed 99.9% of his faithful to be deceived.

    Not true. A Church full of tares, and these are allowed to be deceived. The elect can't be deceived.

    Our Lord allowed most Jєωs experience a true Shoah in A.D. 70. At the end it's our turn, a spritual Shoah.


    It would also set a precedent that at any time Christ's Church could morph into an anti-church in the future.

    True. If it has morphed, it could well morph again in the future. On the other hand only one great apostasy is predicted.


    In addition, it would set a precedent that we can't know if a claimant/ occupant of the chair of Peter is a true pope without each of us privately discerning whether the claimant spoke public heresy.

    True. The scattered flock will continue to scatter and cease to exist if Our Lord won't come soon.


    I think, the robber council of the 1960s was the abomination of desolation (Mt 24,15) and the true mass was abolished in 1969*. Antichrist is not a single person, but the hosts of heretics destroying the Church (see St. John Chrysostom, Opus Imperfectum , homily XLIX). Man sits in the temple and acts as if he was God. The abomination is the sign that the Lord is coming. The parable of the fig tree teaches that the generation which saw the abomination will not pass before Our Lord returns.

    I am human, I may err. But then, I would have to reject the condemned modernists anyway.


    *) From the rooftops:
    "So I called up the Captain,
    'Please bring me my wine'
    He said, 'we haven't had that spirit here since nineteen sixty-nine'"


    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Beaumont

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #36 on: September 09, 2018, 09:58:22 PM »
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  • Thanks for the reply. 

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #37 on: September 10, 2018, 12:17:21 AM »
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  • Quote
    Antichrist is not a single person, but the hosts of heretics destroying the Church (see St. John Chrysostom, Opus Imperfectum , homily XLIX). 
    You can say that there have been many, many precursors to the anti-Christ and also many, many false prophets who preach and spread the anti-Christ’s “atmosphere”, but you MUST believe that the anti-Christ will be ONE person.  This is unanimously taught by the Church Fathers.  


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #38 on: September 10, 2018, 05:51:48 AM »
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  • You can say that there have been many, many precursors to the anti-Christ and also many, many false prophets who preach and spread the anti-Christ’s “atmosphere”, but you MUST believe that the anti-Christ will be ONE person.  This is unanimously taught by the Church Fathers.  

    You are not the Magisterium to declare and define what is unanimously taught by the Church Fathers and what not.

    Also, not a single Church Father teaches much definitive about the final time. They all speculate, what may or may not be the case.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #39 on: September 10, 2018, 07:23:01 AM »
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  • The fact that the Church Fathers all agree on this has been known for centuries.  Some of the Church Fathers wrote VOLUMES just on the end times alone.  The Anti-Christ will be one man.  All else is Protestant corruption.  

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #40 on: September 10, 2018, 08:07:30 AM »
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  • The fact that the Church Fathers all agree on this has been known for centuries.  Some of the Church Fathers wrote VOLUMES just on the end times alone.  The Anti-Christ will be one man.  All else is Protestant corruption.  

    I have read various Church Fathers, and I can not confirm what you say.

    Also, it is the job of the Magisterium, to determine a possibly given consensus, and unless the Magisterium did so, questions are open to debate.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #41 on: September 10, 2018, 10:22:51 AM »
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  • http://www.ncregister.com/blog/joseph-pronechen/14-major-saints-give-details-about-the-antichrist

    Here's just a few quotes from both the bible and saints and popes on the anti-christ.  St Paul speaks of the "man of perdition" and the "lawless one".  The anti-christ is definitely one man.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #42 on: September 10, 2018, 11:25:03 AM »
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  • http://www.ncregister.com/blog/joseph-pronechen/14-major-saints-give-details-about-the-antichrist

    Here's just a few quotes from both the bible and saints and popes on the anti-christ.  St Paul speaks of the "man of perdition" and the "lawless one".  The anti-christ is definitely one man.
    Not sure on that point but am inclined to believe as said in the Bible 2 John. 7 and also the encyclical Haurietis Aquas of Pope Pius XII

    (Paragraph [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588235294118)]39).  [/color]"For the Word of God did not assume a feigned and unsubstantial body, as already in the first century of Christianity some heretics declared and who were condemned in these solemn words of St. John the Apostle: “For many seducers are gone out into the world, who do confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Here is a seducer and the antichrist,” but He united to His divine Person a truly human nature, individual, whole and perfect, which was conceived in the most pure womb of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Ghost."[/size]

    In fact I think it is later than most people believe.  
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #43 on: September 10, 2018, 12:31:24 PM »
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  • http://www.ncregister.com/blog/joseph-pronechen/14-major-saints-give-details-about-the-antichrist

    Here's just a few quotes from both the bible and saints and popes on the anti-christ.  St Paul speaks of the "man of perdition" and the "lawless one".  The anti-christ is definitely one man.

    Joseph Pronechen does not at all treat the question whether tradition unanimously says that antichrist is a single person or not. Moreover, he quotes an unnamed (and overall rather antichrist) Catechism which says:

    Quote
    The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

    Here you have St. Paul's "man of perdition" not equated to a single person. If you accept the author and publisher of this Catechism as Magisterium of the Church, you should accept what they teach.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #44 on: September 10, 2018, 01:44:18 PM »
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  • It's just one example.  The Fathers (and many, many saints) spoke of multiple anti-christs when they spoke of evil, but on the question of THE anti-christ of the apocalypse, they all agree that it is one man, not a demon, born of a woman, but supremely possessed by satan.