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Author Topic: Looking Into Sedevacantism  (Read 4660 times)

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Offline songbird

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Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2018, 06:41:29 PM »
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  • I'll keep you in prayers, Beaumont.


    Offline King Wenceslas

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #16 on: August 28, 2018, 12:33:51 PM »
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  • I would start by reading very closely Vatican I First Dogmatic Constitution, Pastor Aeternus.


    After this is over with, Pastor Aeternus must be revisited by a Council and further fleshed out or I see us being in the same situation 3 to 4 hundred years in the future. Bad doctrinal pope and no where to go except obedience, obedience, obedience with millions and millions of souls lost.

    On the other hand maybe this is the way God works. He doesn't want the half interested filling up heaven.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #17 on: August 28, 2018, 01:31:22 PM »
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  • Heretics are not Catholics. Catholics are baptized, confess the faith undefiled, and are subject to the (to any) reigning pope. Heretics do not confess the faith undefiled and hence are not Catholics.

    The robber council of the 1960ies was a most solemn declaration of heresy of virtually all bishops of the time including the pope. E.g., to hold that there is a natural right to religious liberty, is heresy. All Fathers of that robber council are heretics having declared their heresies in a most manifest way. Their offspring is of the same kind.

    Heretics are defectors, which — following Canon Law, Can. 188 §4 — lose their offices ipso facto (sentenced by the fact itself), or in other words latae sententiae (sentence automatically imposed, no further explicit sentence necessary).

    But we do not even need Can. 188 §4. Communicatio in sacris with heretics is a sacrilege. It does not only not please the Lord. Communicatio in sacris includes participation in their rites as well as their teachings. A pope or a bishop cannot be someone we should shun, whose rites and teachings we must avoid.





    You are confusing "material heretic" with "formal heretic" who has been tried and judged by the Church. There is a difference.
    Otherwise you end up with the Dimond Brothers situation -- anyone they don't like, or disagree with, is a "heretic" and therefore to be avoided, shunned, refused communion, and fought against (and treated) like the actual devil.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #18 on: August 28, 2018, 01:33:07 PM »
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  • I agree with this as well.

    Looking back at all the theologians who studied the matter of a bad pope, there are two main questions to discuss:
    1.  Can the pope ever become a heretic and lose the faith?
    2.  What happens if the pope becomes a heretic and loses the faith?

    Most theologians never moved past question 1 because most could never conceive that the pope could even lose his faith. So, as we are presently dealing with the situation of #2, the number of theological opinions on "what happens now?" is quite small.  There's definitely not a consensus on what happens even among the small # of theologians who attempted to answer the question.
    Best post in this whole thread.
    There is no consensus, even among the HANDFUL of theologians over the centuries who decided to even tackle this question to any degree.
    So how can sedevacantists, or R&R, condemn their opponents as non-Catholic, unworthy to be Traditional Catholic, ban-worthy from CathInfo, etc.?

    I completely believe in the R&R position. But I firmly hold that no one, not R&R and certainly not Sedevacantists, has a leg to stand on when they try to BIND THE CONSCIENCE OF OTHERS, or unilaterally excommunicate others, in this matter. Especially laymen excommunicating countless Catholics from their armchair.

    Now an organization having a unity of doctrine, purpose, position is another matter. You can't have an organization tolerate widely differing (and contradictory) positions on the Crisis. There has to be unity within an organization.

    As for variety of opinion or different paths, that's what the different Trad groups ("lifeboats") are for. But you can't have such variety within a single organization. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." That is why Archbishop Lefebvre expelled sedevacantists from his SSPX, etc. But he never said they were non-Catholic. Wrong, imprudent, etc. perhaps -- but he never claimed they were heretics. There's an important distinction to be noted there.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #19 on: August 28, 2018, 02:03:54 PM »
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  • Best post in this whole thread.
    There is no consensus, even among the HANDFUL of theologians over the centuries who decided to even tackle this question to any degree.
    So how can sedevacantists, or R&R, condemn their opponents as non-Catholic, unworthy to be Traditional Catholic, ban-worthy from CathInfo, etc.?

    I completely believe in the R&R position. But I firmly hold that no one, not R&R and certainly not Sedevacantists, has a leg to stand on when they try to BIND THE CONSCIENCE OF OTHERS, or unilaterally excommunicate others, in this matter. Especially laymen excommunicating countless Catholics from their armchair.

    Now an organization having a unity of doctrine, purpose, position is another matter. You can't have an organization tolerate widely differing (and contradictory) positions on the Crisis. There has to be unity within an organization.

    As for variety of opinion or different paths, that's what the different Trad groups ("lifeboats") are for. But you can't have such variety within a single organization. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." That is why Archbishop Lefebvre expelled sedevacantists from his SSPX, etc. But he never said they were non-Catholic. Wrong, imprudent, etc. perhaps -- but he never claimed they were heretics. There's an important distinction to be noted there.

    There definitely IS consensus among the theologians who considered these problems that the Church would have to be a part of the deposition process (in fact, the only point of DISAGREEMENT in the whole matter, between Bellarmine and JST/Cajetan, is whether or not the CHURCH would have to make a 2nd declaration in Council, or as Bellarmine argued, it was not necessary.  But that the Church was left out of the process altogether was argued by NOBODY).

    And it is HERE that the presumptuousness of the sedes, who would declare a pope deposed on their own non-existant authority, are firstly to be condemned.

    No, there really was NOT much disagreement among theologians then, and despite the loudness of a few thousand sedes, there really isn’t much disagreement today.

    Yes, it really IS just that simple.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #20 on: August 28, 2018, 02:32:10 PM »
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  • You are confusing "material heretic" with "formal heretic" who has been tried and judged by the Church. There is a difference.

    The terms "material heretic" and "formal heretic" seem somewhat misleading to me. The distinction is necessary, and the terms have been used in literature, but they are awkward, since there is no matter without form or form without matter. Also I think, people in error should not be called heretics at all.

    There is also an important distinction between penalties: poena ferendae sententiae and poena latae sententiae. So there are explicitly sentenced heretics and heretics ipso facto.



    Otherwise you end up with the Dimond Brothers situation -- anyone they don't like, or disagree with, is a "heretic" and therefore to be avoided, shunned, refused communion, and fought against (and treated) like the actual devil.

    I do believe that Communicatio in sacris with heretics does not please God. But other than the Dimond Brothers recommend, occasionally I have dinner with my heretical as well as my erring relatives, and we pray together beforehand and afterwards.

    In this time of tribulation, each one of us has to form his conscience and act accordingly. I don't shun people, I am glad to have had and still have the opportunity to learn a lot from (followers of) various trad groups as well as conciliarists.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline AlbertP

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #21 on: August 28, 2018, 02:51:57 PM »
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  • I agree with this as well.

    Looking back at all the theologians who studied the matter of a bad pope, there are two main questions to discuss:
    1.  Can the pope ever become a heretic and lose the faith?
    2.  What happens if the pope becomes a heretic and loses the faith?

    Most theologians never moved past question 1 because most could never conceive that the pope could even lose his faith.  So, as we are presently dealing with the situation of #2, the number of theological opinions on "what happens now?" is quite small.  There's definitely not a consensus on what happens even among the small # of theologians who attempted to answer the question.


    I don't know why you believe most never got past #1.  Everyone admitted that a pope could fall into heresy until the 16th Century, when Albert Pighius first proposed the novel theory that a pope could not do so.  Pighius' novelty remained a minority opinion until the 20th Century.  It is true that Bellarmine attempted to defend Pighius' opinion, but he only qualified it as "probable" while admitting that it was not the common opinion.

    The Decretists of the 12th and 13th centuries treated the questions of a heretical pope at length and proposed various ways of explaining how he could be judged and deposed.  None of them denied that a pope could fall into heresy.  Most mistakenly believed a pope could also be judged and deposed for notorious immorality.  Pope Innocent III rejected this opinion when he famously said he could only be judged by the Church for heresy.

    The various theological opinions about loss of office for papal heresy are simply ways of explaining how a pope can be legally removed without the Church exercising authority over him.  None of the opinions, when correctly understood, support sede-vacantism. They all maintain that the pope must be legitimately deposed or declared deposed before he loses his authority and before the see becomes vacant.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #22 on: August 28, 2018, 03:01:39 PM »
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  • Quote
    I don't know why you believe most never got past #1.  Everyone admitted that a pope could fall into heresy until the 16th Century,
    I did not know this.  Listening to many on here, the idea that the pope could become a heretic is heresy itself. 

    Quote
    The various theological opinions about loss of office for papal heresy are simply ways of explaining how a pope can be legally removed without the Church exercising authority over him.  None of the opinions, when correctly understood, support sede-vacantism.
    I get what you are saying but most sedes interpret these explanations to mean that the Church only removes a pope after he removes himself, through heresy.  They falsely interpret canon laws' "ipso facto" to mean that a pope loses his office for a public utterance of error, without any process or public decision.

    Quote
    They all maintain that the pope must be legitimately deposed or declared deposed before he loses his authority and before the see becomes vacant. 
    I agree with you.  I believe that the Church would have to do 2 things to get rid of a bad pope (i.e. Francis).  One, declare him a heretic.  Two, depose him from his office for being a heretic.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #23 on: August 28, 2018, 03:02:12 PM »
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  • I don't know why you believe most never got past #1.  Everyone admitted that a pope could fall into heresy until the 16th Century, when Albert Pighius first proposed the novel theory that a pope could not do so.  Pighius' novelty remained a minority opinion until the 20th Century.  It is true that Bellarmine attempted to defend Pighius' opinion, but he only qualified it as "probable" while admitting that it was not the common opinion.

    The Decretists of the 12th and 13th centuries treated the questions of a heretical pope at length and proposed various ways of explaining how he could be judged and deposed.  None of them denied that a pope could fall into heresy.  Most mistakenly believed a pope could also be judged and deposed for notorious immorality.  Pope Innocent III rejected this opinion when he famously said he could only be judged by the Church for heresy.

    The various theological opinions about loss of office for papal heresy are simply ways of explaining how a pope can be legally removed without the Church exercising authority over him.  None of the opinions, when correctly understood, support sede-vacantism. They all maintain that the pope must be legitimately deposed or declared deposed before he loses his authority and before the see becomes vacant.  
    Uh-oh...
    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #24 on: August 28, 2018, 03:48:54 PM »
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  • There definitely IS consensus among the theologians who considered these problems that the Church would have to be a part of the deposition process (in fact, the only point of DISAGREEMENT in the whole matter, between Bellarmine and JST/Cajetan, is whether or not the CHURCH would have to make a 2nd declaration in Council, or as Bellarmine argued, it was not necessary.  But that the Church was left out of the process altogether was argued by NOBODY).

    And it is HERE that the presumptuousness of the sedes, who would declare a pope deposed on their own non-existant authority, are firstly to be condemned.

    No, there really was NOT much disagreement among theologians then, and despite the loudness of a few thousand sedes, there really isn’t much disagreement today.

    Yes, it really IS just that simple.
    Wholly ignorant and incorrect yet again. Bellarmine believed that a Pope could not become a heretic. In his writings he commented on the other beliefs, including Catejan's(that a Pope would have to be deposed) and Bellarmine refuted it completely saying that a heretic is separate from the Church and only someone part of the Church could lead it. Bellarmine believed that if a Pope were to fall into heresy, which he personally believed God would never let happen, that said Pope would lose the form of the Papacy upon the moment of embracing heresy and that the deposition would only remove the matter of the Papacy. He distinguished between the form and the matter of the Papacy, saying that the matter was given by men(the election) and the form was given by God to the man elected so long as that election was valid(i.e no impediments). No man with the form of the Papacy could ever be deposed, as no man can judge the Pope, only if the form was removed by God(e.g in the case of heresy) could the matter be revoked(a deposition).

    Now of course this is all irrelevant to you, as you said already that you believe Pope Benedict XVI was a heretic upon election, and it's canon law that a heretic cannot be elected Pope. Ergo, according to your own beliefs, BXVI was not the Pope.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #25 on: August 28, 2018, 04:16:03 PM »
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  • Quote
    Now of course this is all irrelevant to you, as you said already that you believe Pope Benedict XVI was a heretic upon election, and it's canon law that a heretic cannot be elected Pope. Ergo, according to your own beliefs, BXVI was not the Pope.
    Actually, both Pope St Pius X and Pius XII changed the law for papal elections so that any canon law penalties were suspended for the conclave.  This would allow even someone who was excommunicated to both vote and be elected.  Such penalties were only lifted for the conclave and would kick back in afterwards.  So, yes, someone who is privately a heretic and who still holds public office could be the pope.


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #26 on: August 28, 2018, 07:55:53 PM »
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  • We have never been in a position as we are now.  Passed Pius X and passed Pius XII, no mass.  This is "IT".  You say you know that the New Order mess is no good.  And how do you know this?  By the fruits you will know them.  New Order is heresy!  You know it is!  Those who do it, are manifest, out in the open heretics.

    Excommunication is immediate.  No ordinations, again, no good!

    And masons to top, vote for a pope, you call that valid?  No way!  Cardinal Manning and Pope Leo XIII they knew what they were up against. Chapter 12 of Daniel, The Continual Mass, will end.  Christ pointed to this prophet when the apostles asked what to expect in our times.

    Redemptorist priest knew the Mass would end, one day.  We have seen it since Luther.  

    Offline Beaumont

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 04:17:52 PM »
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  • My understanding of the sedevacantist argument is that they believe the most recent popes (JPI through Francis) were public heretics before they were elected and thus were never true popes to begin with. This is because a public heretic cannot be pope under divine law as he is not a Catholic. Whether they claim that about Paul VI or think Paul VI lost his office at Vatican II I'm not sure. Not sure about their position on John XXIII either. In any case, they would argue that the changing of the conclave laws by Pius X and II only changed the effect of Church law and ecclesiastical penalties, but not divine law which holds a public heretic cannot be pope. 

    As for a pope who becomes a heretic, they would argue that by the public heresy itself, the pope loses his office. All that is left is for a council or cardinals to declare the Chair vacant as a legal or administrative matter, in order to start the next conclave.

    Offline Beaumont

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #28 on: August 30, 2018, 04:26:56 PM »
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  • The points that the sedevacantists make that are most compelling are Francis promulgating as "magisterium" in the AAS that public unrepentant adulterers can receive Holy Communion as well as officially changing the teaching of the Church to state that the death penalty is inadmissible due to human dignity. In addition, every Pope since Paul VI has officially legislated that it is permissible to give Holy Communion to Protestants and Schismatics in some capacity. It is hard to see how a true pope could legislate such immoral actions, not to even mention the errors and heresies of Vatican II. How can a pope, entrusted by God to pass on the true Faith to the faithful,  so brazenly infect the teaching authority of the church with such pernicious error that leads souls to hell? It makes no sense.

    At a certain point, it seems the R&R approach guts the papacy as it allows for a man like Francis to hold the office. In this case, even if they do not admit we have no pope, the pope that they admit Francis is, is no pope at all as almost all of his teachings must be resisted and contradicted in order to keep one's Faith. This seems to me a tell tale sign that something is not right. God could never allow a notorious wolf to lead His flock in matters of doctrine.

    Bad popes in the past were negligent, cowardly, or imprudent in their teaching office. And they personally committed various sins. But they never taught pernicious error to the flock ad nauseam like Francis. This puts the R&R'er in the position of saying that if a Catholic obeys the pope and believes his teaching, it actually damns him to Hell in the objective order. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Looking Into Sedevacantism
    « Reply #29 on: August 30, 2018, 08:00:39 PM »
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  • The points that the sedevacantists make that are most compelling are Francis promulgating as "magisterium" in the AAS that public unrepentant adulterers can receive Holy Communion as well as officially changing the teaching of the Church to state that the death penalty is inadmissible due to human dignity. In addition, every Pope since Paul VI has officially legislated that it is permissible to give Holy Communion to Protestants and Schismatics in some capacity. It is hard to see how a true pope could legislate such immoral actions, not to even mention the errors and heresies of Vatican II. How can a pope, entrusted by God to pass on the true Faith to the faithful,  so brazenly infect the teaching authority of the church with such pernicious error that leads souls to hell? It makes no sense.

    At a certain point, it seems the R&R approach guts the papacy as it allows for a man like Francis to hold the office. In this case, even if they do not admit we have no pope, the pope that they admit Francis is, is no pope at all as almost all of his teachings must be resisted and contradicted in order to keep one's Faith. This seems to me a tell tale sign that something is not right. God could never allow a notorious wolf to lead His flock in matters of doctrine.

    Bad popes in the past were negligent, cowardly, or imprudent in their teaching office. And they personally committed various sins. But they never taught pernicious error to the flock ad nauseam like Francis. This puts the R&R'er in the position of saying that if a Catholic obeys the pope and believes his teaching, it actually damns him to Hell in the objective order.

    Ever heard of Pope Honorius?

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07452b.htm
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."