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Author Topic: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.  (Read 133239 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
« Reply #90 on: Yesterday at 11:01:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on Yesterday at 07:23:42 AM
    Ok, it seems to me that you’re pooh poohing his opinion by saying; “that’s his opinion”. If not, what do you mean by that? Do you have an opinion from a reputable source that agrees with you?
    Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.




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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #91 on: Yesterday at 11:09:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 11:01:18 AM
    Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.
    Ok, Stubborn, so can you finally admit that Sedevacantism and 'loss of membership' is not wrong.  It's a valid theological opinion.

    You can follow Suarez all you want (nobody is stopping you) but also remember, that Suarez is just an opinion as well.

    If both sides of the aisle (R&R and Sedeism) would remember that IT'S JUST AN OPINION, then Tradition would be better off.

    But if both of you (and many others) go back to the tired, old, worn-out arguments of yesterday and start arguing as if sedeism is the ONLY answer or that a pope can NEVER lose office, then Tradition will stay fractured.

    We all have to do better.  We're in an unprecedented crisis.  ONE SIDE OF AN OPINION, OR THE OTHER SIDE, IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT.  40+ years of debating has proved that...
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #92 on: Yesterday at 12:14:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Yesterday at 11:09:45 AM
    Ok, Stubborn, so can you finally admit that Sedevacantism and 'loss of membership' is not wrong.  It's a valid theological opinion.

    You can follow Suarez all you want (nobody is stopping you) but also remember, that Suarez is just an opinion as well.

    If both sides of the aisle (R&R and Sedeism) would remember that IT'S JUST AN OPINION, then Tradition would be better off.

    But if both of you (and many others) go back to the tired, old, worn-out arguments of yesterday and start arguing as if sedeism is the ONLY answer or that a pope can NEVER lose office, then Tradition will stay fractured.

    We all have to do better.  We're in an unprecedented crisis.  ONE SIDE OF AN OPINION, OR THE OTHER SIDE, IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT.  40+ years of debating has proved that...
    As I've said and been saying, I hope they are right. I don't think they are, but I hope so. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #93 on: Yesterday at 01:27:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 11:01:18 AM
    Yes, I already posted one from Suarez and one from here - I happened across both of them so I'm pretty sure there are plenty of others, which is to say apparently it is one of those subjects that remain a dispute between theologians - which is what I have read in a few different places these last few days.

    Here is the problem, Suarez is talking about excommunicates in general. All (manifest) heretics are excommunicated and separate themselves from the Church by their heresy and thus cease to be members of the Church, but not all excommunicates are heretics and thus can still be members of the Church.

    Excommunication does not necessarily render one a non-Catholic and outside the Church, but (manifest and pertinacious) heresy does put the heretic outside the Church. Excommunication is a medicinal penalty imposed by the Church to encourage the miscreant to reform his ways and to repent.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #94 on: Yesterday at 02:06:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on Yesterday at 01:27:02 PM
    Here is the problem, Suarez is talking about excommunicates in general. All (manifest) heretics are excommunicated and separate themselves from the Church by their heresy and thus cease to be members of the Church, but not all excommunicates are heretics and thus can still be members of the Church.

    Excommunication does not necessarily render one a non-Catholic and outside the Church, but (manifest and pertinacious) heresy does put the heretic outside the Church. Excommunication is a medicinal penalty imposed by the Church to encourage the miscreant to reform his ways and to repent.
    Now it is you who are disagreeing with Bellarmine, who disagreed with Suarez lol....

    "Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows...."
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #95 on: Yesterday at 04:28:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Yesterday at 02:06:56 PM
    Now it is you who are disagreeing with Bellarmine, who disagreed with Suarez lol....

    "Bellarmine maintains that excommunicates cease to be members of the Church. He argues in the first place from the text in Saint Matthew's Gospel : " If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."  He draws his second argument from a canon in the Decree of Gratian which reads as follows...."



    My point is not about whether excommunicates are still members of the Church or not, but that heretics (they are excommunicated ipso facto) are certainly not members of the Church.

    Can you please give a direct quote from Saint Robert where he says that *all* excommunicates are no longer members of the Church? It is true, as I stated above, *some* excommunicates cease to be members of the Church, but you are conflating two things. The pertinacious heretic kicks himself outside the Church by his heresy, there is no need for a sentence of excommunication. Again, all heretics are excommunicates, but not all excommunicates are heretics.

    With all of that being said, because the Church hasn’t rendered judgment yet and because of the huge amount of confusion, I personally give leeway to those who still believe these degenerate heretics to be popes.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #96 on: Yesterday at 04:44:49 PM »
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    • Duplicate post.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Angelus

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #97 on: Yesterday at 05:20:40 PM »
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    • The short article below (6 pages) compares and contrasts Bellarmine/Suarez/Pighius, etc. with the teaching of Pastor Aeternus.

    https://theologicalstudies.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Is-Bellarmines-Fourth-Proposition-Identical-with-the-Extreme-View-of-Albert-Pighius_.pdf

    Here is a quick summary:

    "The 'fourth opinion' outlined by Bellarmine, which he ascribes with the theological note of 'most certain and assured'...

    "The supreme Pontiff is not only not able to err as Pontiff (uti pontificem) but that even as a particular person he is not able to be heretical, by pertinaciously believing something contrary to the faith. (Bellarmine’s fourth proposition, De Romano Pontifice, book 4, chap. VI)

    "...we can determine that Pastor Aeternus formally adopted Bellarmine’s version of this doctrine, by dismissing the possibility that the Apostolic See or its individual occupants could ever publicly defect from the Catholic faith
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #98 on: Yesterday at 06:04:02 PM »
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    • Argument ... as usual, based on failure to make distinctions, this time between ... major and minor excommunication, the former severing communion with the Church and resulting in loss of membership, the latter simply being a punitive deprivation of the Sacraments.

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5021.htm
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    I answer that, When a man enters the Church by Baptism, he is admitted to two things, viz. the body of the faithful and the participation of the sacraments: and this latter presupposes the former, since the faithful are united together in the participation of the sacraments. Consequently a person may be expelled from the Church in two ways. First, by being deprived merely of the participation of the sacraments, and this is the minor excommunication. Secondly, by being deprived of both, and this is the major excommunication, of which the above is the definition.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #99 on: Today at 05:21:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on Yesterday at 04:28:40 PM


    My point is not about whether excommunicates are still members of the Church or not, but that heretics (they are excommunicated ipso facto) are certainly not members of the Church.

    Can you please give a direct quote from Saint Robert where he says that *all* excommunicates are no longer members of the Church? It is true, as I stated above, *some* excommunicates cease to be members of the Church, but you are conflating two things. The pertinacious heretic kicks himself outside the Church by his heresy, there is no need for a sentence of excommunication. Again, all heretics are excommunicates, but not all excommunicates are heretics.

    With all of that being said, because the Church hasn’t rendered judgment yet and because of the huge amount of confusion, I personally give leeway to those who still believe these degenerate heretics to be popes.
    I don't have a quote directly from the saint, I just posted what a reliable source said that he believed that "excommunicates cease to be members of the Church." I have already argued against that idea with a reference from the same source who said what Suarez believed. 

    There is a very good case to be made for each opinion, but that's what it is, an opinion - unless or until the Church explicitly settles matter it can only ever be an opinion - and the Church may never settle it, who knows? As for me, my opinion is the same as Suarez's. 

    Aside from that and IMO, being excommunicated at all for whatever sin should be enough to scare the bejeebers out of any Catholic because it means the Church is telling you that you are guilty of a very grave sin. Whether that expels you from the Church or not is almost a mute point because either way you will go to hell if you die in that state.

    There is even a case to be made as regards the schismatic EO who the Church says can validly and licitly administer the last sacraments  in danger of death etc.,  on that account, though they've severed themselves, one can argue that they are still in some way, some how connected members. I do not believe they are members, I believe they are definitely outside the Church, but there's an argument that can be made there. 

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: TomGubbinsKimmage undying supporter of the heretical Novus Ordo church.
    « Reply #100 on: Today at 05:31:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 05:21:26 AM
    I don't have a quote directly from the saint, I just posted what a reliable source said that he believed that "excommunicates cease to be members of the Church."

    Yes, St. Robert does hold that the excommunicated are not members of the Church.  But he does not qualify major vs. minor.  Nevertheless, the term was already well-known (since St. Thomas writing about the distinction was about 300+ years before St. Robert).  I imagine that those reading would understand the distinction and that he wouldn't have to spell it out.

    You can be refused the Sacraments simply as a punishment.  Heck, our Trad clergy excommunicate people all the time.
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