All Trinitarian Dogmas remain the same. All Incarnational Dogmas remain the same. All Marian Dogmas remain the same. All Eucharistic Dogmas remain the same. Things like Ecuмenism are not Dogmas at all, but pastoral practices based on the possibility of good faith or invincible ignorance or material heresy among separated Christians. Once it is admitted separated Christians can be in good faith, and yet must still be reconciled to the Body of the Church, the supposed "heresy" in Vatican II disappears. There is no heresy in Vatican II. Nor can there be, for exactly the Reasons of Indefectibility mentioned by Pope Bl. Pius IX in Etsi Multa.
Disagree. Apostolic Succession requires both Orders and Jurisdiction. One or the other by itself is not sufficient to maintain the succession. Consecration would transmit orders, but only Papal appointment will transmit jurisdiction. Therefore, that Papal appointment is necessary, and therefore the See cannot be vacant for 62 supposed years, as the sedes hold.
The same conclusion follows another way: the First Vatican Council says there will be Shepherds and Teachers in the Church until the end of time, who were sent just as the Apostles were sent. That is clearly a reference to Bishops who have power of teaching and of ruling, the Magisterial power and that of jurisdiction. The reference to "sent as the Apostles were sent" is another reference to canonical mission. These things are explained by theologians.
Msgr. Van Noort is one example: "What is required for genuine apostolic succession is that a man enjoy the complete powers (i.e., ordinary powers, not extraordinary) of an apostle. He must, then, in addition to the power of orders, possess also the power of jurisdiction. Jurisdiction means the power to teach and govern. - This power is conferred only by a legitimate authorization and, even though once received, can be lost again by being revoked. [Christ's Church, Monsignor G Van Noort]"
Struthio, if all these Bishops along with the Popes lost their offices and promulgated heresy, the Catholic Church then and there died and defected. It is impossible. The comparison with Ephesus II is not correct at all; that was a purely local Council, and from the first, as "Shameless Popery" quoted by Decem Rationis has docuмented, was rejected by the Popes. The claims of the sedevacantists here are like the claims of the Old Catholics vis-a-vis Vatican I. That was already answered by the Pope: to claim heresy in a Universal Council of Bishops like Vatican I - not a merely local Council only, like Ephesus II - denies indefectibility.
Jerm, agreed.
Yeti, as you can see, Struthio doesn't agree with your theory. Sedes will not be able to come to agreement about it. But if you go by what older Theologians wrote, Fr. Suarez says you need to gather the Ordinary Pastors of the Church in Council. These Theologians envisioned only one single Pope possibly (and then not in Council) falling into heresy (as a private person only), and then a Council being convened, within the lifetime of that Pope, of all Jurisdictional Bishops ("Ordinary Pastors") to determine his pertinacity or lack thereof, and declare him deposed if he continues obstinate. Most said this was only a hypothetical and would never happen. But if you wish to claim this happened to H.H. Pope John XXIII and all his Successors, you need to show "Ordinary Pastors" ready to declare it.
Yes, you're correct here, Xav. Pope Pius XII (along with many other Popes in the past) have explicitly affirmed, along with many theologians at the time, that
if your pastors aren't from the apostolic see, then you cannot follow them. You can claim that the whole hierarchy has defected if you want to reject Etsi Multa and apostolic succession, or you can play with the ideas that somehow an antipope snuck in and got rid of Cardinal Siri's legitimate rule (which Siri himself never accepted as at all legitimate and which it should be deeply concerning that no traditionalist clergy has accepted this theory publicly in 62 years...), that, somehow, the Church does not defect given a line of material Popes (is a chair indestructible if the sawdust remaining after its destruction is still
materially but not
formally a chair?), that it's somehow okay to believe that the Church operates only under bishops and priests with no actual jurisdiction or orders from Popes, that somehow all of the explicitly separate traditionalist organizations have unity of faith, government, and communion, or that people who point out the ridiculousness of these theories are somehow people who just lack faith and hate God and the Church, and that they're "like the Jews who didn't believe in Christ" for
believing in Christ's promises... but none of that is going to save schismatic traditionalists from pretending that their theories are perfect.
Topic: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals: (Read 9082 times)