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Author Topic: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:  (Read 9136 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #140 on: July 07, 2020, 12:31:50 AM »
Hi Decem Rationis. Yeah, that's the claim made to save SVism, but it is contrary to cuм Ex and to Fr. Gueranger:

cuм Ex is about the only docuмent in Church history that speaks of a heretical Pontiff, and it clearly says his appointments will not confer any authority or office on anyone, to wit, "each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;" This means the Church has defected and lost Her Apostolicity if there has really been a 62-year vacancy. But we who have the Faith know that Church defection is impossible. Ergo, there hasn't been a 62 year vacancy, and the Apostolic Church continues because of Papal Appointments.

If you want it from another Theologian, here is Dom Prosper Gueranger, showing a non-Catholic, who himself lacks mission, cannot cause it to be transmitted to another: "Jerusalem, were defiled by heresy; they became chairs of pestilence; and having corrupted the faith they received from Rome, they could not transmit to others the mission they themselves had forfeited. Sad indeed was the ruin of such pillars as these! Peter’s hand had placed them in the Church. They had merited the love and veneration of men; but they fell; and their fall gave one more proof of the solidity of that edifice, which Christ Himself had built on Peter. The unity of the Church was made more visible. Obliged by the treachery of her own favoured children to deprive them of the privileges they had received from her, Rome was, more evidently than ever, the sole source of pastoral power." https://reginamag.com/saint-peters-chair-at-antioch/

Fr. G doesn't say the appointments were valid, but only because the Pope or Church supplied jurisdiction, or that Christ Himself did. He says they conferred no authority whatsover, which is my position. Fr. Gueranger clearly says heretics are unable to transmit mission. To put that in plain language, no jurisdiction will be supplied to heretics' appointments. They will confer no authority on anyone.
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Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #141 on: July 07, 2020, 06:22:43 AM »
Here's another relevant excerpt from the discussion between John Lane and Louis Verracchio:

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/wI5f0455e9cb956

Xavier - as to cuм Ex, Mr. Lane argues that the penalty aspect of it - all actions, appointments, etc.  of a heretic pope are void - is merely human, not divine law, and he says theologians back him on that. He also says that the theologians support him on his position on supplied jurisdiction for the act of an anti-pope in the appointment of a bishop with the Catholic faith to a see established by a true pope. 

As to Dom G, that's an opinion in a theological work on the liturgy not specifically directed to this ecclessiological questions. A lawyer would call that "dicta." Again, Lane indicates he has theologians supporting him in relevant treatises or manuals addressing jurisdiction, or at least that there is nothing in the discussions of supplied jurisdiction which indicate his position is off base.

The point being, your position is disputed. Being disputed, you have not proved Sedevacantism to be shown to be heretical - as I believe you have claimed on this basis.   
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #142 on: July 07, 2020, 07:34:10 AM »
Let me ask you one thing, DR: if even a 62 year vacancy is possible, is there any limit at all to the length of a vacancy? Is a 100 year vacancy possible? a 620 year one. A 1000 year one? Can the See have been vacant from 1100 or 1200 as Ibranyi claims? Clearly, that is wrong, and there is a limit. I submit that that limit is the time it takes for all Papally Appointed Bishops to die or resign.

The solitary evasion is very frigid. It should be noted early sedevacantists did not claim this but openly acknowledged themselves that their theory required that the Cardinals and Bishops appointed by the "AntiPopes" were not even Cardinals at all, nor had authority. This latter day evasion is just one, last, desperate attempt to save sedevacantism from reducing into open heresy in my opinion.

As for the claims of supplied jurisdiction, jurisdiction is not supplied to heretics. Are the appointments of the Patriarch of Constantinople or of Moscow authority-conferring because of supplied jurisdiction. If they are not, then neither are those of alleged heretic non-popes.
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Offline Endeavor

Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #143 on: July 07, 2020, 08:04:25 AM »
As if this Pure Bishop theory was not crazy enough, I will add to it. Those like James Kosek and others in this circle claim the mother of the sibling group The Band Perry (country) was instrumental in getting this bishop to visit America. He was allegedly coming to A America to consecrate Kosek as bishop. Also, the questionable Francis Miller (self-proclaimed ofm) in his long quest for the bishop's mitre. It never ends with sedevacantists.
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Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #144 on: July 07, 2020, 08:20:53 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on July 07, 2020, 07:34:10 AM
Let me ask you one thing, DR: if even a 62 year vacancy is possible, is there any limit at all to the length of a vacancy? Is a 100 year vacancy possible? a 620 year one. A 1000 year one? Can the See have been vacant from 1100 or 1200 as Ibranyi claims? Clearly, that is wrong, and there is a limit. I submit that that limit is the time it takes for all Papally Appointed Bishops to die or resign.

The solitary evasion is very frigid. It should be noted early sedevacantists did not claim this but openly acknowledged themselves that their theory required that the Cardinals and Bishops appointed by the "AntiPopes" were not even Cardinals at all, nor had authority. This latter day evasion is just one, last, desperate attempt to save sedevacantism from reducing into open heresy in my opinion.

As for the claims of supplied jurisdiction, jurisdiction is not supplied to heretics. Are the appointments of the Patriarch of Constantinople or of Moscow authority-conferring because of supplied jurisdiction. If they are not, then neither are those of alleged heretic non-popes.

Nothing is impossible with God. I will not presume to place time or any other restrictions on the providence and power of God.

However, we have principles and truths which we can discuss and apply. You need - to prove your point - to establish the principle that the apostolic nature of the Church requires that there be a living ordinary who was appointed by a true pope possessing the fullness of a pope's ordinary jurisdiction over the Church.

I do not think you have established that point. As a side note, I do not even think you have established the necessity of a bishop with "ordinary" jurisdiction for the Church's apostolic nature to continue, much less one appointed by a true pope who himself possessed a pope's ordinary jurisdiction.

In any event, Mr. Lane I believe shares your view that there must at least be a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction. He argues that such jurisdiction can be supplied by the Church to cover the act of appointing a bishop who possesses the Catholic faith to a legitimate see by an anti-pope who lacks the ordinary jurisdiction of a true pope.

So that is the issue for discussion. Is he right? Or, if the question is (as likely) not clear, is his position defensible and one that is in accordance with the principles involved as developed by the Church and her competent theologians?

That question is likely beyond us - even most of the necessary resources to settle it (theological manuals in Latin only even if they can be found by us) are likely beyond us. But perhaps we can have an intelligent conversation about it using resources we do have access to.

I have Salaverri's volume on the Church and will look for his discussion, but reading that thing is like doing a crossword puzzle at times and it would take me days to probably get a grasp of his view even if I had nothing else to attend to.  :laugh1:

Anyway, there it is.
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