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Author Topic: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:  (Read 9083 times)

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Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2020, 08:58:20 AM »
But when does the generation that began in 1965 end? 2035? or supposedly 2085? You said 70 years. But also possibly till 120 years. 

I think that's mistaken. The Church of Christ cannot cease to be Apostolic nor lose Her Apostolic Authority. This is clearly taught in the Catholic Encyclopedia. She will always have the Apostolic Mission, Ordinary Jurisdiction, and She will never defect. If all offices in the Church have defected to usurpers, the Church also has defected. Since that is impossible, it could not have taken place, and that explanation is false: Here is the CE on Apostolicity.

"Apostolicity is the mark by which the Church of today is recognized as identical with the Church founded by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles. It is of great importance because it is the surest indication of the true Church of Christ, it is most easily examined, and it virtually contains the other three marks, namely, Unity, Sanctity, and Catholicity ...

Apostolicity of mission is a guarantee of Apostolicity of doctrine. St. Irenæus (Adv. Haeres, IV, xxvi, n. 2) says: "Wherefore we must obey the priests of the Church who have succession from the Apostles, as we have shown, who, together with succession in the episcopate, have received the certain mark of truth according to the will of the Father; all others, however, are to be suspected, who separated themselves from the principal succession", etc. In explaining the concept of Apostolicity, then, special attention must be given to Apostolicity of mission, or Apostolic succession. Apostolicity of mission means that the Church is one moral body, possessing the mission entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles, and transmitted through them and their lawful successors in an unbroken chain to the present representatives of Christ upon earth...

The history of the Catholic Church from St. Peter, the first Pontiff, to the present Head of the Church, is an evident proof of its Apostolicity, for no break can be shown in the line of succession. Cardinal Newman (Diff. of Anglicans, 369) says: "Say there is no church at all if you will, and at least I shall understand you; but do not meddle with a fact attested by mankind." ...

Regarding the Greek Church, it is sufficient to note that it lost apostolic succession by withdrawing from the jurisdiction of the lawful successors of St. Peter in the See of Rome. The same is to be said of the Anglican claims to continuity (MacLaughlin, "Divine Plan of the Church", 213; and, Newman, "Diff. of Angl.", Lecture 12.) for the very fact of separation destroys their jurisdiction. They have based their claims on the validity of orders in the Anglican Church. Anglican orders, however, have been declared invalid. But even if they were valid, the Anglican Church would not be Apostolic, for jurisdiction is essential to the Apostolicity of mission."

Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2020, 02:38:47 PM »
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them." (Rev 13,7)

The Church will be in eclipse: "the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven" (Matth 24,29; compare the woman of Rev 12, sun, moon, stars)

"And when the scattering of the band of the holy people shall be accomplished, all these things shall be finished." (Dan 12,7)

"But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?" (Luke 18,8)

"And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." (Matth 24,22)


The Church of Christ cannot cease to be Apostolic nor lose Her Apostolic Authority. This is clearly taught in the Catholic Encyclopedia. She will always have the Apostolic Mission, Ordinary Jurisdiction, and She will never defect.

That's your own wording, or maybe of some insignificant theologian. The authoritative Vatican Council teaches that there will be (apostolically authorized) shepherds including a Pope usque ad consummationem saeculi (up to the consummation of the age, cf. Matth 28,20). The Church may then cease to have shepherds and a Pope.

Now, there is no positive definition, what the consummation of the age means. But in Matth 24,14 Our Lord says that it comes when the Gospel has been preached to all nations. Then we should watch out for the abomination of desolation at the holy place, which some fathers (e.g. John Chrysostom, Bede) have interpreted as false teachers in place of true bishops.

In many places the consummatio saeculi is translated as simply the end. Understood by some as meaning the last judgment. But St. Augustine says that the whole final time of tribulation, including the time of Antichrist, may be included in the day of judgment, since a day does not necessarily signifies a day in the literal sense. The seduction of Antichrist may be part of what is called the last judgment. There have been other judgments before the last judgment, which took quite some time to be consummated.

A scattered small number of Faithful will be left, when Our Lord returns. Scattered, not gathered by apostolic shepherds. As far as I can see, that's a licit way to read the signs of the times. It doesn't contradict any Church teaching.



But when does the generation that began in 1965 end? 2035? or supposedly 2085? You said 70 years. But also possibly till 120 years.

After 120 years, I think I would definitively have to revise my point of view. After 70 I'd start to get nervous. I hope the days will be shortened.



Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2020, 02:55:47 PM »
In many cases the saints and doctors of the Church show a parallel between Christ and His Bride, the Church.  I think the best theory I have ever heard of how the Restoration will happen is that it will happen through the Hand of God and not through normal means of mankind.  Most of mankind could not wrap their minds around the idea that Our Lord could die and still truly be God.  Hence He was abandoned by even most of those closest to Him.  If the apostles had known how Our Lord's Crucifixion would have been remedied by His Resurrection they would not have abandoned Him.  It was a matter of Faith and only Our Lady, Saint John and a few others remained faithful and trusting in Our Lord until the end.

In a similar way...  

The Church seems to have died.  Many say that therefore, Traditional Catholicism can never have been the True Faith.  I believe that it is a similar situation as with Our Lord's crucifixion.  God has concealed from us the means of how the Church will be ressurected.  It is not our job to try and find out what God has not revealed to us or argue about how or when the Church will be restored.  Our job is to keep the Faith and the traditions.  To watch and be faithful like Our Lady and Saint John until the day God rises the Church up again.

When Our Lord rose from the dead, people often did not recognize Him until the "breaking of the bread" which many understand to have been the Mass.  In a similar sense, it could be argued that when the Church is risen up again by God it will be by the True Form and Traditional Mass that It shall be recognized.

Come Holy Ghost and restore the Faith on earth!

Viva Cristo Rey!


Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2020, 03:01:25 PM »
On the other hand, the seeming "death of the Church" is the result of faithlessness, of apostacy, of bad will. And this cannot be compared to the death of Our Lord.

In my eyes, the destruction of the Church can more aptly compared to the destruction of the Temple A.D. 70. The "Apostate Church" has been trying to kill Our Lord (spiritually) again.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: List of Oldest living Catholic Bishops and Cardinals:
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2020, 03:18:14 PM »
The idea you describe here, where there is some sort of deadline that is rapidly approaching, after which it will be impossible to elect a pope, is simply not part of sedevacantist theory, nor do sedes believe in anything like that.

He likes to strawman sedevacantists.