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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 10264 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #330 on: October 13, 2019, 12:32:37 PM »
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  • Bergoglio wants us, i.e. "man" to obey the UN, according to reports

     
    https://catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2019/09/18/really-pope-francis-must-we-obey-the-united-nations-and-the-evil-it-commands/
    Well, the UN is a corrupt, Jєω-masonic institution. We have to deny his request.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #331 on: October 13, 2019, 12:33:32 PM »
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  • They command us to accept Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo as licit.  Francis commands us not to proselytize.

    Just a few examples.
    Please post these, per above, they are only a few, shouldn't take you much time.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #332 on: October 13, 2019, 12:42:40 PM »
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  • You haven't been around long enough to know some of his strange perspectives.  Stubborn believes that unless the Pope says, "I command you to do [such-and-such] under the pain of sin," then there's no command.
    I know with certainty that the pope most assuredly and absolutely, certainly *can* command us to do that which is sinful - reality proves this. When that happens, the highest and most fundamental of all Catholic Principles decides our course of action for us. That principle you wholly and continually reject, is: "First we are under obedience to God, only then under obedience to man." What I'd like to know is, why?


    Quote
    He also asserts that the Magisterium is absolutely infallible ... but says that Vatican II is not part of the Magisterium.
    There was a poster who was banned, Bellator Dei, who posted maybe a dozen or so quotes directly from popes in their encyclicals that taught this exact thing. The Church's magisterium is 100% infallible, 100% of the time.

    Just because you maintain and promote the NO definition of what the magisterium is, only demonstrates their efficiency in confusing the term.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #333 on: October 13, 2019, 12:59:44 PM »
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  • I’m not going to rehash an old debate but I will say, Ladislaus, that I disagree with your magisterium understanding.  You correctly allow multiple distinctions for the complexities of sedeprivationism.  Yet your view of the magisterium is overly general and too broad.  I think that the magisterium is equally complex.  Thus, it is incorrect to say that V2 is part of the magisterium.  It isn’t but it also is. There are different levels of magisterial authority, just as some things are doctrinal and some things are only “theologically certain”.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #334 on: October 14, 2019, 09:04:05 PM »
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  • Please post these, per above, they are only a few, shouldn't take you much time.
    Lumen Gentium:

    Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #335 on: October 14, 2019, 11:37:20 PM »
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  • So which part of Lumen Gentium must we believe?  The orthodox part?  Or the part which is anti-orthodox?  Or maybe both?  
    .
    Nevermind that Vatican officials have said that LG (and all of V2) is not doctrinal. They also said it can be questioned.  They also said that it must be interpreted accordingly to Tradition.  Ergo, that out-of-context paragraph you quoted does not mean what you think it means.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #336 on: October 15, 2019, 04:51:34 AM »
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  • Lumen Gentium:

    Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
    The command was for the Constitution to be promulgated, and sadly, it was. Hopefully the next council will condemn LG for what it is. But there is no command, not even one command binding us to sin.

    The reason V2 was (and still is) accepted by most people, is because they had such a blind trust in their bishops and their priests and in the pope, that they were totally defenseless against the conciliar revolution. Their blind trust was used against them - and the people ate it up. 

    For many, it was due to such blind trust that when the lies and heresies sprang out from the council that even heresies which were diametrically opposed to 2000 years of Catholic Doctrine and to traditional Catholic belief and practice, the people simply said: “well, the only thing we really have to worry about is doing what the priests and bishops and the pope tell us.” 

    What the people did, was invoke authority to excuse themselves from being responsible for abandoning the true faith for the new faith. What all of this amounts to is the people lost their faith of their own volition, of their own free will, the pope did not command it.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #337 on: October 15, 2019, 09:15:43 AM »
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  • But there is no command, not even one command binding us to sin.

    I don't understand what you're getting at.  RARELY has the Church ever explicitly tagged a command as "binding under pain of sin".  It's generally assumed that anything commanded by the Church is binding under pain of sin, and then moral theologians later debate the degree of sin involved with breaking any one of these commands.

    If my father said to me when I was younger, "hey, son, take out the trash" and I refused, I would commit a sin, even if he did not explicitly add, "I command you under pain of sin to take out the trash."  Did he have to get that explicit?

    Several popes have said that Catholics must accept and give internal assent to the teachings of Vatican II.  In fact, it's this COMMAND that they have been giving to the SSPX explicitly as a condition for regularization.  So I cannot possibly fathom how you have concluded that the Vatican has not made these things binding under pain of sin.  Otherwise, they'd just say, "SSPX, you reject Vatican II?  No biggie.  It's completely optional anyway.  So, let's talk logistics about how to get you set up."  If +Fellay had been told that he did not have to accept Vatican II in order to return, he would have been officially back 15 years ago.  In fact, that has always been THE sticking point in the talks, whether the SSPX accepts Vatican II.  So I don't know what you are smoking to conclude that the Vatican does not consider the teachings of V2 to be binding.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #338 on: October 15, 2019, 09:22:00 AM »
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  • So which part of Lumen Gentium must we believe?  The orthodox part?  Or the part which is anti-orthodox?  Or maybe both?  
    .
    Nevermind that Vatican officials have said that LG (and all of V2) is not doctrinal. They also said it can be questioned.  They also said that it must be interpreted accordingly to Tradition.  Ergo, that out-of-context paragraph you quoted does not mean what you think it means.
    All I’m saying is that the Vatican is commanding it.  Im not saying it’s pleasing to God to obey the command 

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #339 on: October 15, 2019, 09:39:11 AM »
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  • I don't understand what you're getting at.  RARELY has the Church ever explicitly tagged a command as "binding under pain of sin".  It's generally assumed that anything commanded by the Church is binding under pain of sin, and then moral theologians later debate the degree of sin involved with breaking any one of these commands.
    I said "binding us to sin", not "binding under pain of mortal sin". If the pope were to command our adherence to LG or any of the heresies in the V2 teachings / docuмents, that would be his attempt at binding us to sin because he would be commanding us to go contrary to the faith, to displease God, which is sin. He would be commanding us to sin.


    Quote
    Several popes have said that Catholics must accept and give internal assent to the teachings of Vatican II.  In fact, it's this COMMAND that they have been giving to the SSPX explicitly as a condition for regularization.  So I cannot possibly fathom how you have concluded that the Vatican has not made these things binding under pain of sin.  Otherwise, they'd just say, "SSPX, you reject Vatican II?  No biggie.  It's completely optional anyway.  So, let's talk logistics about how to get you set up."  If +Fellay had been told that he did not have to accept Vatican II in order to return, he would have been officially back 15 years ago.  In fact, that has always been THE sticking point in the talks, whether the SSPX accepts Vatican II.  So I don't know what you are smoking to conclude that the Vatican does not consider the teachings of V2 to be binding.

    Of course we owe our religious assent to papal teachings, but not when doing so would be sinful - which losing the faith is a mortal sin - which is what happens to all who accept those teachings, because they are teachings contrary to the faith.

    You're stumbling block is that you cannot believe your eyes when you see that the pope, of all people, has in fact and in union with all the bishops, promulgated docuмents and teachings that are contrary to the faith, perhaps worse yet, you seem to ignore the fact that all those who accept them, do so of their own free will in spite of them being contrary to the faith and not at the command of the pope. They use the pope as their alibi - as if that's going to get them out of it.

    BTW, I gave up smoking a long time ago, but for those who do, it's better they smoke in this world than in the next.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #340 on: October 15, 2019, 10:28:59 AM »
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  • V2 is a legally binding council, but it is not morally binding.  It is legally binding in that we must give “religious assent” to its “pastoral initiatives”.  It is not morally binding because 1) it doesn’t teach with certainty of faith, 2) “religious assent” allows for critique, and something which can be questioned is not binding, 3) V2 is supposed to be “interpreted in the light of Tradition”.  Something which requires interpretation is not a command, nor binding.  
    .
    All previous ecuмenical councils were both legally and morally binding because 1) they were taught with “certainty of faith”, 2) they required 100% submission of mind/will, under penalty of anathema (ie grave sin), 3) the teachings were clear and concise.  
    .
    V2 was ecuмenical in the sense that all bishops/cardinals took part in it.  However it cannot be compared to previous ecuмenical councils in form, purpose or conclusion.  V2 is a historical anomaly; it was only ecuмenical in appearance; it was a non-doctrinal conciliar novelty.
    .
    Modernists love to take a pre-existing idea or organization and “subvert expectations” by changing the rules, altering legal fineprint, and inventing new terms to explain all the changes.  Just like the devil uses magic to make a trick appear real, so the Modernists used legal trickery to make V2, a conciliar novelty, appear the same as all previous councils.  But it is not so.  And they’ve admitted it.  


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #341 on: October 15, 2019, 05:10:53 PM »
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  • V2 is a legally binding council, but it is not morally binding.  It is legally binding in that we must give “religious assent” to its “pastoral initiatives”.  It is not morally binding because 1) it doesn’t teach with certainty of faith, 2) “religious assent” allows for critique, and something which can be questioned is not binding, 3) V2 is supposed to be “interpreted in the light of Tradition”.  Something which requires interpretation is not a command, nor binding.  
    .
    All previous ecuмenical councils were both legally and morally binding because 1) they were taught with “certainty of faith”, 2) they required 100% submission of mind/will, under penalty of anathema (ie grave sin), 3) the teachings were clear and concise.  
    .
    V2 was ecuмenical in the sense that all bishops/cardinals took part in it.  However it cannot be compared to previous ecuмenical councils in form, purpose or conclusion.  V2 is a historical anomaly; it was only ecuмenical in appearance; it was a non-doctrinal conciliar novelty.
    .
    Modernists love to take a pre-existing idea or organization and “subvert expectations” by changing the rules, altering legal fineprint, and inventing new terms to explain all the changes.  Just like the devil uses magic to make a trick appear real, so the Modernists used legal trickery to make V2, a conciliar novelty, appear the same as all previous councils.  But it is not so.  And they’ve admitted it.  
    I'm not disagreeing with this.  But that's different than what Stubborn said.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #342 on: October 15, 2019, 10:54:02 PM »
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  • I'm not Stubborn.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #343 on: October 15, 2019, 11:57:39 PM »
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  • I'm not Stubborn.
    If I recall correctly the way the sequence of discussion went, stubborn made the absurd claim that the conciliar popes haven’t commanded us to accept any of the new errors.  When I said that was ridiculous and was asked for proof, I presented lumen gentium as proof that most certainly the conciliar hierarchy does command us to accept VII.  That’s it. That’s all I was saying. I offered no comment on whether we should obey the command.  You wound up basically replying to me arguing that we shouldn’t obey the command which is different than saying the command doesn’t exist, which is what I was arguing against

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #344 on: October 16, 2019, 06:23:04 AM »
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  • If I recall correctly the way the sequence of discussion went, stubborn made the absurd claim that the conciliar popes haven’t commanded us to accept any of the new errors.  When I said that was ridiculous and was asked for proof, I presented lumen gentium as proof that most certainly the conciliar hierarchy does command us to accept VII.  That’s it. That’s all I was saying. I offered no comment on whether we should obey the command.  You wound up basically replying to me arguing that we shouldn’t obey the command which is different than saying the command doesn’t exist, which is what I was arguing against
    Let me clarify, the pope and council can command us to commit sin, as in: "By my authority and in the Holy Spirit, you must believe Catholics and Muslims worship the same God" or "By my authority, you must accept Vatican II".

    I am saying they have never done this - *BUT* - if I am wrong, please post a quote of such a command. If he said: "It is our wish that the people accept V2" - well, his wish is not our command, we are not mindless zombies.  

    If I am wrong and the popes have given such commands, then in such cases we must not obey those commands, because by obeying such commands we would commit sin. Contrary to popular opinion, we do not owe our religious assent to sinful teachings and commands, that is, commands that by obeying, we would commit sin. This seems simple enough to me.  

    Saying "By my apostolic power I command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God" is not commanding us to do anything. If you want to read into the words what the words themselves do not say, then yes, certainly the act of promulgation itself commands our religious assent to V2 - which we must not accept.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse