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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 36966 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #320 on: October 12, 2019, 10:27:06 PM »

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They've certainly given us commands that we can't obey. 
Examples?

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #321 on: October 12, 2019, 10:42:52 PM »
Examples?
They command us to accept Vatican II, and the Novus Ordo as licit.  Francis commands us not to proselytize. 

Just a few examples.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #322 on: October 12, 2019, 11:03:25 PM »
Just as the scribes and Pharisees ruled the Jews by technicalities and overbearing rules, so do our present day Modernists.  Thus we must be “wise as serpents” as Christ warned us.  So what really are we required to do, by law?

We have to accept V2 with “religious submission” (which is an invented term) and this means we have to assume it’s orthodox BUT we are allowed to question non-orthodox areas.  In reality, “religious submission” is a contradiction; hence it's meaningless.  
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The new mass is licit, in the sense that it exists.  It is NOT, however, obligatory to attend or to agree with.  Further, as Quo Primum shows, it is illegal to attend, as only the rite of St Pius V is both legal and obligatory. 
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It is not a sin to proselytize in any way.  

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #323 on: October 13, 2019, 01:13:40 AM »
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Stubborn made the ridiculous argument that the Conciliar Popes haven't commanded us to do anything.

I mean that's clearly ridiculous.  They've certainly given us commands that we can't obey.  They've also given us commands that some of us, at least, can obey in good conscience, while others perhaps can't.

He is telling us to obey the UN  because, obviously that is what HE is doing.  He has chosen to obey the UN instead of Christ because his actions reveal his mindset that Christ is only a man after all - albeit a glorified one.  

The UN was founded solely by man and is totally devoid of Christianity and Christianity’s founder.  So straight away we realise that the Pope has shifted his allegiance a hundred per cent to a man-made organisation that is totally devoid of anything to do with the salvation of souls and everlasting life.  We are now being directed to the glorious truth of what Christ really died for - that human life begins and ends totally here on earth - full stop!  Christ has done his job - he has glorified man!

The new liberation surpasses and supplants that of the Faith the Church has always taught that there is life after death.  It is a new springtime remember?  We are now free of Christ and his commandments/restraints.  We can sin to our heart’s content.  We are free. And all because he died for us.  What mercy!  What love!.  That is how He has loved us - be happy!

It is Pope Francis that has abandoned the Church.  It is he who is in danger not us.  We pray for him to return and repent.   St. Peter was not judged by Christ when as first Pope he denied His Lord.  Christ prayed for him just as we are commanded to pray for the man that non-Christians, pagans, conciliarists, traditionalists et al throughout the whole world recognise as being head of the Catholic Church.

Whether we personally believe him to be Pope, or not the Pope is of no consequence.  It is our privilege and our job to keep the faith.   Nobody can take it away from us.


Glory be to the Father, and to the Son:
and to the Holy Ghost;
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be:
world without end. Amen.



Offline Meg

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #324 on: October 13, 2019, 08:27:09 AM »
Stubborn made the ridiculous argument that the Conciliar Popes haven't commanded us to do anything.

I mean that's clearly ridiculous.  They've certainly given us commands that we can't obey.  They've also given us commands that some of us, at least, can obey in good conscience, while others perhaps can't.

Whether we're obliged to obey their *lawful* commands is gonna be a difference between R + R and Sede.

And I'm not convinced of the Sede view of the papacy itself, really that's my biggest issue with it.  I'm highly skeptical of ultramontanism.  While they were incorrect, I guess I'm not convinced the Conciliarists were *all* wrong (I agree with them being wrong where dogma condemns them.)  And I think from a realist standpoint its a bit silly to be all like "we have to obey the Pope no matter what.  Wait, we can't?  I guess he's not a true pope then."

But Stubborn did actually make this claim, and it doesn't make any sense.

Well, what constitutes a "lawful command" exactly, according to Church teaching? I can't remember Francis' exact wording about having to obey the U.N. Did he specifically say that all Catholics are now required to obey the U.N.? Is it now an official part of Church teaching that we are to obey the U.N?

The conciliar Popes have said and done things that go against the Catholic Faith for quite awhile now, whether or not it takes the form of telling us that we should do something, or saying something that goes against the Catholic Faith. It's nothing new. They are Modernists. They can't help it. We've been in the same boat for many decades now.

The sedes and sedeprivationists rarely talk about Modernism, when it comes the post-conciliar popes. They only care that these popes go against Church teaching, which makes them heretics. That's a difference between sedevacantism (and sedeprivationism) and R&R.

+ABL continually pointed to Modernism as being the cause of the Crisis. The SV's and SP's, while they do not deny that Modernism is a problem, don't really care much about the cause of the Crisis. They just continually harp on the Pope being a heretic and we can't follow him and that's that. End of story. That's why they act all shocked when Francis says something that goes against the Catholic Faith. They want everyone else to be shocked as well. Well, it doesn't work on me. There isn't anything that Francis can say or do that will shock me anymore. He's an extreme Modernist, and it better to have him as a true example of the ugliness of Modernism, than it would be to have another B16, who mixed a bit of tradition with his Modernism.