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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 36751 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #285 on: October 11, 2019, 06:24:04 AM »
Indeed, the dogmatic fact of papal legitimacy must be known a priori from some external criterion. Theologians all agree that this criterion is the universal peaceful acceptance of the Church.  Question is whether such universal peaceful acceptance exists or existed in the case of the V2 papal claimants.  Now, the other thing is that there are OTHER possible explanations for what happened with Vatican II and the New Mass.  Could Paul VI have been blackmailed (on account of, say, his alleged ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activities)?  That too would have rendered any forced acts of his null and void.  We just don't know.
There are a number of problems with your idea, here is only one: Let's pretend for a moment that the next pope is an even more stringent and orthodox pope then say, Pope Pius X, and he plans to wholly restore the Church. There is no way that this pope would enjoy a "universal peaceful acceptance of the Church." No way.

Throughout this conciliar revolution, from it's beginning until now, not so much as one drop of blood has been shed because the pope, hierarchy, priests, nuns and people all abandoned their faith *willingly*, some even eagerly, they do not want anything to do with anything other then what they have - what they really want is what they’ve got, that’s why they have it, that’s why they’ve chosen it, that’s why they fight for it, and its why they continue to absorb it, they cling to it and they love it. You're living in a dream world if you have any notion that a holy pope will be universally peacefully accepted by the whole Church - if anything, he'll be universally violently rejected.  Much blood will be shed, be certain of this.

Right now, no pope is going to receive "universal peaceful acceptance of the Church" (whatever that means to you) unless he's a Modernist Liberal who is hell bent on destroying the Church.

So that's the problem with the opinion of "all theologians" (of the last 100 years or so who hold this opinion) who make the universal peaceful acceptance the criterion for papal validity.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #286 on: October 11, 2019, 07:21:27 AM »
There are a number of problems with your idea, here is only one: Let's pretend for a moment that the next pope is an even more stringent and orthodox pope then say, Pope Pius X, and he plans to wholly restore the Church. There is no way that this pope would enjoy a "universal peaceful acceptance of the Church." No way.

Right, I understand.  But I think that's exactly the point I'm trying to make.  Those types who would reject this new orthodox Pope, are they really Catholics and part of the Church?  Also, not liking him is not the same thing as not accepting him as a rule of faith.  And I think that it's what we have to understand universal acceptance as.  I mean, hey, I don't particularly "like" Pius XII.  But I still recognize him as a Catholic, as the Pope, as having authority over the Church.  So even if these types that you describe were up in arms with dislike, if they on that account did not accept him as a true Pope with authority over them, then, I have news for them, their opinion doesn't count for squat ... since they are not part of the Church.

With Bergoglio, it's not just that we don't like the guy.  We don't really recognize him as having the same faith we do.  Why else have we split off from him like that?  Traditional Catholics do NOT accept Bergoglio, not REALLY ... even if they pay some lip service to him because they feel scrupulous about having to since he's walking around wearing white.  But, according to some, it's crucial that 99.9% of the Novus Ordo establishment accept him.  What does that even mean when by their own polls 95% of them are heretics and have become such subjectivists that they feel they can believe what they want to ... in other words, they don't even believe that the Pope of even the Catholic Church in general is a rule of faith, so how can they accept him as such?  For these, the Catholic Church is just one of many paths that lead to the same God, and it just so happens to be their preference at this time.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #287 on: October 11, 2019, 07:22:09 AM »
If the criterion for being dogmatically certain about the legitimacy of a Pope is NOT peaceful universal acceptance, than what is it?

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #288 on: October 11, 2019, 07:22:40 AM »
There are a number of problems with your idea, here is only one: Let's pretend for a moment that the next pope is an even more stringent and orthodox pope then say, Pope Pius X, and he plans to wholly restore the Church. There is no way that this pope would enjoy a "universal peaceful acceptance of the Church." No way.

Throughout this conciliar revolution, from it's beginning until now, not so much as one drop of blood has been shed because the pope, hierarchy, priests, nuns and people all abandoned their faith *willingly*, some even eagerly, they do not want anything to do with anything other then what they have - what they really want is what they’ve got, that’s why they have it, that’s why they’ve chosen it, that’s why they fight for it, and its why they continue to absorb it, they cling to it and they love it. You're living in a dream world if you have any notion that a holy pope will be universally peacefully accepted by the whole Church - if anything, he'll be universally violently rejected.  Much blood will be shed, be certain of this.

Right now, no pope is going to receive "universal peaceful acceptance of the Church" (whatever that means to you) unless he's a Modernist Liberal who is hell bent on destroying the Church.

So that's the problem with the opinion of "all theologians" (of the last 100 years or so who hold this opinion) who make the universal peaceful acceptance the criterion for papal validity.

Now THAT was an interesting insight!

Ultimately, you are raising the question:

“What about a claimant who’s papacy should be a dogmatic fact, but isn’t?”

That scenario never occurred to me before.

And I completely agree with your suggestion that a truly orthodox pope would never has his pontificate ratified by the universal moral unanimity of the bishops.

But does that necessarily mean that the unanimous opinion of theologians are wrong that said universal acceptance makes such a papacy a dogmatic fact (and therefore as binding as it is certain)?

Still thinking it through, but I don’t think so:

It seems to indispensable to the hierarchical constitution of the Church that there could be a true pope rejected by a sizable number of bishops (for any reason), or conversely, that all the bishops could be deceived into recognizing a false pope.

But the example of a good pope-elect who refuses to gain universal consent has already happened in history (e.g., during the GWS, when saints backed competing claimants, and consequently none of them were popes, precisely because of the lack of universal consent.).

Moreover, theologians of the stature of a Billot or Alphonsus would have had these historical example in mind when writing about dogmatic facts and universal consent of the bishops.

For that reason, I don’t think the unfortunate reality you describe discredits the criteria of universal consent as the measuring stick of the legitimacy of any papacy (modernist or orthodox).

I think it does show tgat the Church has been led into an inextricable predicament which only our Lord’s intervention will solve.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #289 on: October 11, 2019, 07:26:59 AM »
C’mon now, the guy who just worshipped Gaia in the Vatican Gardens might be the pope of the Catholic Church?  Give me a break.

Sure, but the problem is the principle.  WHO decides whether he's not the Pope?  I've known guys who were just as certain that Pius XII was not a legitimate Pope.  So my "doubtist" position is that now that significant numbers of Catholics have agreed on questioning his orthodoxy and his legitimacy, he's entered the state of a Papa Dubius.  We cannot resolve this matter ourselves, however, since that authority belongs only to the Church.  Even if I conclude that it's very likely that he's not the Pope, I still cannot either 1) claim that I have certainty of faith regarding the matter nor 2) bind the consciences of others.