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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 10263 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #165 on: October 09, 2019, 04:25:26 PM »
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  • More on the identity of the pope being a binding dogmatic fact:

    Billot:
    St. Alphonsus de Ligouri
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    Update: Van Noort
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    “It is of no importance that in past centuries some Pontiff was illegitimately elected or took possession of the Pontificate by fraud; it is enough that he was accepted afterwards by the whole Church as Pope, since by such acceptance he would have become the true Pontiff. But if during a certain time he had not been truly and universally accepted by the Church, during that time the Pontifical See would have been vacant, as it is vacant on the death of a Pontiff”.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #166 on: October 09, 2019, 04:27:51 PM »
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  • Yes, precisely.  Universal Acceptance derives from the fact that the entire Church cannot ever accept a false rule of faith.  90% of Novus Ordo pew sitters don't even have enough faith to believe that either Pope or the Church as a whole is a rule of faith.  95% of Novus Ordo pew sitters are heretics one one point or another ... based on THEIR OWN POLLS.  So how does the Novus Ordo establishment represent the sensibilities of the Universal Church as to whether these men are rules of faith.  In fact, the entire Traditional movement rejects these men as rules of faith.
    I believe the theologians quoted by Sean Johnson referred to a “universal acceptance” of the pope by the cardinal electors. 

    Can you name a cardinal elector in any of the conclaves electing any of the V2 popes who rejected them as pope?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #167 on: October 09, 2019, 04:28:34 PM »
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  • I believe the theologians quoted by Sean Johnson referred to a “universal acceptance” of the pope by the cardinal electors.

    Can you name a cardinal elector in any of the conclaves electing any of the V2 popes who rejected them as pope?
    Wrong.
    Here is Hunter:
    if the person of the Pope were uncertain, it would be uncertain what Bishops were in communion with the Pope; but according to the Catholic faith, as will be proved hereafter, communion with the Pope is a condition for the exercise of the function of teaching by the body of Bishops (n. 208) ; if then the uncertainty could not be cleared up, the power of teaching could not be exercised, and Christ's promise (St. Matt, xxviii. 20; and n. 199, II.) would be falsified, which is impossible. ... it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine constitution of the Church would be ruined. (Hunter, 1894) (ref1, ref2,
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #168 on: October 09, 2019, 04:28:49 PM »
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  • Again, we could start an entire thread disputing whether the V2 papal claimants had Universal Acceptance.  That is not my point at this time.

    My point is that if there is Universal Acceptance and that the status of these men as legitimate is dogmatic fact, then +Lefebvre and +Williamson were heretics for openly doubting it and calling it into question.  +Lefebvre caused grave scandal by declaring that he won't say that one should not say they are not legitimate popes.

    Those are your two choices, Johnson.  Either backtrack on whether their legitimacy is dogmatic fact, or else concede that +Lefebvre and +Williamson and +Tissier (he also questioned it) were/are heretics.
    If you look it up, you will discover that "Universal acceptance" is the acceptance of the pope as pope by all the cardinals after his election, not acceptance by the whole world or all the members of the Church.

    No one is a heretic for doubting the legitimacy of the conciliar popes - the popes themselves are responsible for whatever doubt people might have, including +ABL and +Williamson. If anyone is a heretic, it would be doubters who are dogmatic about their doubt, but I doubt even they are heretics.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #169 on: October 09, 2019, 04:29:08 PM »
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  • No Catholic is a heretic, even materially, for reflecting thoughtfully on certain questions, especially when the principles behind them are unclear, yet to be fully elucidated, or even disputed with contrasting opinions on either side. Further studies in the last 50 odd years have shown conclusively and beyond any doubt that dogmatic fact teaching is taught by all theologians. It was mentioned by Fr. Francis Connell as applied to Pope Paul VI in 1966. The only question before us, (we're not in the 80s or 90s today) is, In this Year of Our Lord 2019, is Pope Francis universally accepted by the Catholic Hierarchy? If yes, the OUM of the Church clearly testifies that he is the Pope.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #170 on: October 09, 2019, 04:29:50 PM »
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  • If you look it up, you will discover that "Universal acceptance" is the acceptance of the pope as pope by all the cardinals after his election, not acceptance by the whole world or all the members of the Church.

    No one is a heretic for doubting the legitimacy of the conciliar popes - the popes themselves are responsible for whatever doubt people might have, including +ABL and +Williamson. If anyone is a heretic, it would be doubters who are dogmatic about their doubt, but I doubt even they are heretics.
    Wrong:  see previous quote
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #171 on: October 09, 2019, 04:30:21 PM »
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  • I believe the theologians quoted by Sean Johnson referred to a “universal acceptance” of the pope by the cardinal electors.

    Can you name a cardinal elector in any of the conclaves electing any of the V2 popes who rejected them as pope?
    This.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #172 on: October 09, 2019, 04:31:39 PM »
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  • No Catholic is a heretic, even materially, for reflecting thoughtfully on certain questions, especially when the principles behind them are unclear, yet to be fully elucidated, or even disputed with contrasting opinions on either side. Further studies in the last 50 odd years have shown conclusively and beyond any doubt that dogmatic fact teaching is taught by all theologians. It was mentioned by Fr. Francis Connell as applied to Pope Paul VI in 1966. The only question before us, (we're not in the 80s or 90s today) is, In this Year of Our Lord 2019, is Pope Francis universally accepted by the Catholic Hierarchy? If yes, the OUM of the Church clearly testifies that he is the Pope.
    Recall earlier in the thread Ladislaus says that to question a dogmatic fact is the same as to question the Immaculate Conception!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #173 on: October 09, 2019, 04:33:05 PM »
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  • This.
    Gratuitous and contradicted by every approved writer on the subject (including Billot, Hunter, and Alphonsus above).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #174 on: October 09, 2019, 04:34:22 PM »
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  • Wrong.
    Here is Hunter:
    if the person of the Pope were uncertain, it would be uncertain what Bishops were in communion with the Pope; but according to the Catholic faith, as will be proved hereafter, communion with the Pope is a condition for the exercise of the function of teaching by the body of Bishops (n. 208) ; if then the uncertainty could not be cleared up, the power of teaching could not be exercised, and Christ's promise (St. Matt, xxviii. 20; and n. 199, II.) would be falsified, which is impossible. ... it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine constitution of the Church would be ruined. (Hunter, 1894) (ref1, ref2,
    Concentrate on the bolded portion.  This is universal acceptance.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #175 on: October 09, 2019, 04:34:30 PM »
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  • From the American Ecclesiastical Review, in 1965, Rev. Father Joseph Connell, the editor of the AER after Monsignor Fenton, tells us,

    Question: What certainty have we that the reigning Pontiff is actually the primate of the universal Church – that is, that he became a member of the Church through valid baptism, and that he was validly elected Pope?

    Answer: Of course, we have human moral certainty ... This type of certainty excludes every prudent fear of the opposite.

    But in the case of the Pope we have a higher grade of certainty – a certainty that excludes not merely the prudent fear of the opposite, but even the possible fear of the opposite. In other words, we have infallible certainty ...  The whole Church, teaching and believing, declares and believes this fact, and from this it follows that this fact is infallibly true. We accept it with ecclesiastical – not divine – faith, based on the authority of the infallible Church.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #176 on: October 09, 2019, 04:35:32 PM »
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  • Sorry, but I’m not letting you walk away from the matter of peaceful universal acceptance making these papacies dogmatic facts.
    By saying Lefebvre/Williamson question tge conciliar papacies, you are calling them heretics by making them to reject dogmatic facts.

    This is unbelievable.  It is the exact opposite, and you are completely deranged, Johnson.  Seek mental help.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #177 on: October 09, 2019, 04:36:17 PM »
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  • This is unbelievable.  It is the exact opposite, and you are completely deranged, Johnson.  Seek mental help.
    I accept your concession of defeat if you can’t mount an argument 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #178 on: October 09, 2019, 04:40:27 PM »
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  • Wrong:  see previous quote
    Who needs to look it up? Pope Pius X and XII said that "the man elected is instantly the true pope", I will take their word for it.

    I never saw that quote before, but universal acceptance means that the only ones who must be unanimous in accepting the elected pope as pope, are all of the cardinals.

    Whenever the Church refers to "Universal anything", it always includes the attribute of time - as in since the time of the Apostles, since the promulgation of the Gospel, as in always and everywhere, or always and by all the faithful. So whoever thinks it is an infallible sign of validity that the pope enjoys universal acceptance by the whole Church, they don't know what the H they're saying.     

    Have a pleasant evening.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #179 on: October 09, 2019, 04:42:47 PM »
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  • Wrong.
    Here is Hunter:
    if the person of the Pope were uncertain, it would be uncertain what Bishops were in communion with the Pope; but according to the Catholic faith, as will be proved hereafter, communion with the Pope is a condition for the exercise of the function of teaching by the body of Bishops (n. 208) ; if then the uncertainty could not be cleared up, the power of teaching could not be exercised, and Christ's promise (St. Matt, xxviii. 20; and n. 199, II.) would be falsified, which is impossible. ... it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine constitution of the Church would be ruined. (Hunter, 1894) (ref1, ref2,
     
    Right, Hunter - I had that one in mind. He says the bishops’ recognition, but its a similar point - the connection of the acceptance by the hierarchy (including bishops and not just cardinals) of the election and papacy. 

    I don’t believe we have a single cardinal elector doubting the papacy of a V2 pope. What about bishops who were (are) ordinaries? I don’t believe you can name any of them who doubted a V2 pope’s papacy either. Thuc maybe? 

    And if it’s only one or two, what then?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.