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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 36999 times)

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Offline hollingsworth

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2019, 03:00:39 PM »
If ABL might have suspended his SV tendencies had Bergoglion simply formally opened the door of return, then shame on him.     
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2019, 03:14:17 PM »
Quote from: hollingsworth on October 06, 2019, 03:00:39 PM
If ABL might have suspended his SV tendencies had Bergoglion simply formally opened the door of return, then shame on him.    
I mean if it was purely pragmatic, sure.  But I could also see the reasoning going something like.

"Bad Pope wants to excommunicate us?  Well we know we're right, but also he DOES have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, so that's a real problem.  Maybe he isn't Pope."

"Terrible Pope *isn't* using the keys against us, and is actually basically willing to have us in communion without demanding we accept Vatican II?  I mean he's still bad but maybe this isn't actually a logical contradiction."

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Offline hollingsworth

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2019, 03:48:29 PM »

Quote
Or he might have thought Francis' willingness to give ordinary jurisdiction to the SSPX without conditions as proof that, while certainly the crisis isn't over, that it could be possible to fight from within.

Fight within what?  ABL already declared that New Church is apostate, that its pope had left the faith.  How then could he have fought within a church which he had relegated to oblivion?
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2019, 04:01:48 PM »
Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 06, 2019, 02:45:22 PM
I don't know how +Lefebvre would reason through this, but I will say, while Francis certainly says more problematic things than his predecessors, he by pure happenstance seems to be better for trads who want to be in communion with him than JPII was.  Mostly because he's too progressive to actually really want to force people to agree with him.

At this point the SSPX is PRACTICALLY regularized and Francis isn't seriously trying to persecute them.  

To be clear this isn't a defense of the man, actually listening to his teaching would be dangerous, but he's not attempting to excommunicate anyone for not doing so.

Whereas John Paul II was actively suppressing the Latin Mass and actively only allowing it to people who were also OK with the Novus Ordo.

So I don't know how +Lefebvre would reason through that issue.  For all I know he might be like "it actually doesn't matter anymore" or something (Sedevacantism, not Traditionalism.)

That said, I seriously doubt he'd bind sedevacantism on people, even if he did personally conclude that it seemed more likely.

Right, but while Francis would have been more lenient on the SSPX, +Lefebvre wasn't primarily about convenience.  When John Paul II got elected, the Archbishop was at first optimistic.  But when Assissi happened, that's when +Lefebvre came within a hair's breadth of becoming an open sedevacantist.  Bergoglio makes Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2019, 04:09:04 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on October 06, 2019, 04:01:48 PM
Right, but while Francis would have been more lenient on the SSPX, +Lefebvre wasn't primarily about convenience.  When John Paul II got elected, the Archbishop was at first optimistic.  But when Assissi happened, that's when +Lefebvre came within a hair's breadth of becoming an open sedevacantist.  Bergoglio makes Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.
And with Francis' stacked deck, the next "pope" will make Francis look like Pius V.
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