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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 10287 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2019, 06:49:25 PM »
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  • From Father Cekada's article --

    Quote
    Did he consider sedevacantists to be upright members of the Church?

    Undoubtedly. He rebuked certain over-zealous Society priests who refused the sacraments to sedevacantists. He collaborated with Bishop de Castro-Mayer after the Brazilian prelate had made his sedevacantism quite clear. He accepted numerous seminarians from sedevacantist families, parishes or groups. He patronised the Le Trévoux “Ordo” with its guide to traditional places of worship throughout the world, which has always included (and still does) certain known sedevacantist Mass centres. He was at all times well aware of the presence of sedevacantists among the Society’s priests.

    So, again, unlike yourself, +Lefebvre did not consider sedevacantism schismatic.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #31 on: October 06, 2019, 06:59:21 PM »
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  • This is an interesting one, and I don't think that anyone has caught the significance of it.

    +Lefebvre:
    Quote
    It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    This statement was made in 1986.  Now, unless he's just exaggerating the timeline, 20 years puts it as 1966.  Did +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer being privately questioning the legitimacy of Paul VI in 1966 already, in the immediate wake of Vatican II?


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #32 on: October 06, 2019, 07:30:35 PM »
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  • ABL: 
    Quote
    It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.”

    That's 1986.  It is now 2019, fast forwarding 33 years, (maybe 53 years, if you include the twenty years prior to 1986)  Obviously, ABL couldn't make up his mind.  +W, as leader of the "Resistance," still can not make up his mind. SJ advises patience as a necessary suffering we must endure, which is risible.   The neo-SSPX, of course, has not made up its mind.  But for the neo-SSPX it would not be good for business to make any kind of SV declaration.  So we know that won't happen.  It has all become a very bad joke played on the faithful. 
    Let SVism, I say, become the new fall back 'Ordinary' traditional position; and let the-pope-is-pope-until-formally-condemned become the new 'Extraordinary' position for those who still love the old ways. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #33 on: October 06, 2019, 07:37:50 PM »
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  • This is an interesting one, and I don't think that anyone has caught the significance of it.

    +Lefebvre:
    This statement was made in 1986.  Now, unless he's just exaggerating the timeline, 20 years puts it as 1966.  Did +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer being privately questioning the legitimacy of Paul VI in 1966 already, in the immediate wake of Vatican II?
    Don't you think if that was the case, someone would have produced evidence of it by now?
    Don' you think his reaction to sedevacantists like the 9 would have been much softer had he himself been contemplating the position he in fact condemned?
    Don't you think he would never have written the 1981 Pledge of Fidelity had he secretly been wondering about (or already decided against) the Pope(s)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #34 on: October 06, 2019, 07:39:15 PM »
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  • ABL:
    That's 1986.  It is now 2019, fast forwarding 33 years, (maybe 53 years, if you include the twenty years prior to 1986)  Obviously, ABL couldn't make up his mind.  +W, as leader of the "Resistance," still can not make up his mind. SJ advises patience as a necessary suffering we must endure, which is risible.   The neo-SSPX, of course, has not made up its mind.  But for the neo-SSPX it would not be good for business to make any kind of SV declaration.  So we know that won't happen.  It has all become a very bad joke played on the faithful.  
    Let SVism, I say, become the new fall back 'Ordinary' traditional position; and let the-pope-is-pope-until-formally-condemned become the new 'Extraordinary' position for those who still love the old ways.
    On the left, Fellay, Athanasius Schneider, Mattei et al want to say "Oh, if Lefebvre were alive today, he would surely have changed to support my position."
    On the right, the sedes make the same claim.
    But only the Resistance rests content with continuing he position he did in fact endorse.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #35 on: October 06, 2019, 07:52:07 PM »
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  • Don't you think if that was the case, someone would have produced evidence of it by now?

    What are you talking about?  This is +Lefebvre himself saying it.  What better evidence is there for what +Lefebvre thought than what +Lefebvre said?  Now, I conceded that he may have been exaggerating the timeframe ... or somehow including the entire post-Vatican II period in the timeline, but it he's accurate, this is indeed interesting.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #36 on: October 06, 2019, 07:56:12 PM »
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  • What are you talking about?  This is +Lefebvre himself saying it.  What better evidence is there for what +Lefebvre thought than what +Lefebvre said?  Now, I conceded that he may have been exaggerating the timeframe ... or somehow including the entire post-Vatican II period in the timeline, but it he's accurate, this is indeed interesting.
    I’m saying if your reading is correct, and Lefebvre was already contemplating sedevacantism in 1966, there should be some evidence of such from that time period.
    Where is it?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #37 on: October 06, 2019, 08:30:50 PM »
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  • This was not by any means out of character --
    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

     At the time of the split, not all of The Nine were actually sedevacantists.  They were more upset about the toleration of Novus-Ordo-annulled couples at their chapels and one particular priest who was serving with the SSPX who had not been conditionally ordained ... because he refused ... and about being required to offer the John XXIII 1962 revised Tridentine Missal.
    Yes, "the Nine" merely saw the handwriting on the wall.  They saw how the SSPX was already compromising with Rome back when it wasn't en vogue.

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=48


    It just so happens that today would have been Fr Joseph Collins' birthday.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #38 on: October 06, 2019, 08:49:22 PM »
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  • Yes, "the Nine" merely saw the handwriting on the wall.  They saw how the SSPX was already compromising with Rome back when it wasn't en vogue.

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=48


    It just so happens that today would have been Fr Joseph Collins' birthday.  

    Then your narrative works directly against Ladislaus:

    He imagines a Lefebvre who was becoming open to sedevacantism, while you imagine one on a relentless trajectory for the conciliar church (for which objective openness or tolerance of sedevacantism would have been counterproductive).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #39 on: October 06, 2019, 08:56:01 PM »
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  • Then your narrative works directly against Ladislaus:

    He imagines a Lefebvre who was becoming open to sedevacantism, while you imagine one on a relentless trajectory for the conciliar church (for which objective openness or tolerance of sedevacantism would have been counterproductive).
    It seems to me that there is quite a bit of support out there to suggest that Archbishop Lefebrve was never sure one way or another...a very conflicted man.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #40 on: October 06, 2019, 09:02:44 PM »
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  • It seems to me that there is quite a bit of support out there to suggest that Archbishop Lefebrve was never sure one way or another...a very conflicted man.

    As anticipated (above).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #41 on: October 06, 2019, 10:00:23 PM »
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  • Is it possible, just POSSIBLE, that Lefebvre believed something like this?

    The see might be vacant, it might be.  We can't know for sure.  But until the Church makes that clear, we risk being schismatic if we take that view.  So we've got to assume he's Pope, obey his lawful commands, and pray for him in the mass. And any priest who won't do that isn't welcome in the society.

    A view like that would reconcile both of your arguments, so I wonder.

    Offline Floscarmeli

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #42 on: October 06, 2019, 11:03:11 PM »
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  • The church make it clear? They are not even Catholic anymore, so don’t think that is going to happen any time soon!

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #43 on: October 06, 2019, 11:05:45 PM »
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  • The church make it clear? They are not even Catholic anymore, so don’t think that is going to happen any time soon!
    1: I asked a question about whether Lefebvre could've believed X.  Whether the belief would be correct is a separate question.

    2: why does it have to be soon?

    Offline Floscarmeli

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    Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
    « Reply #44 on: October 06, 2019, 11:09:49 PM »
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  • Doesn’t have to be soon, point is it’s never going to happen, Rome has lost the faith!