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Author Topic: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism  (Read 36990 times)

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #180 on: October 09, 2019, 04:43:32 PM »
Who needs to look it up? Pope Pius X and XII said that "the man elected is instantly the true pope", I will take their word for it.

I never saw that quote before, but universal acceptance means that the only ones who must be unanimous in accepting the elected pope as pope, are all of the cardinals.

Whenever the Church refers to "Universal anything", it always includes the attribute of time - as in since the time of the Apostles, since the promulgation of the Gospel, as in always and everywhere, or always and by all the faithful. So whoever thinks it is an infallible sign of validity that the pope enjoys universal acceptance by the whole Church, they don't know what the H they're saying.      

Have a pleasant evening.
Can you think of s single cardinal or bishop who is disputing Francis’ papacy?
Me either.
Then how in the world could his papacy not be a dogmatic fact (Lad’s implicit position), when it is the ratification of cardinals and bishops that makes the papacy a dogmatic fact?
And if a dogmatic fact, where the room to question or reject it??

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #181 on: October 09, 2019, 04:43:39 PM »
In Ex Quo, Pope Benedict XIV teaches, "it suffices Us to be able to state that a commemoration of the supreme pontiff and prayers offered for him during the sacrifice of the Mass is considered, and really is, an affirmative indication which recognizes him as the head of the Church, the vicar of Christ, and the successor of blessed Peter, and is the profession of a mind and will which firmly espouses Catholic unity. This was rightly noticed by Christianus Lupus in his work on the Councils: “This commemoration is the chief and most glorious form of communion” (tome 4, p. 422, Brussels edition). This view is not merely approved by the authority of Ivo of Flaviniaca who writes: “Whosoever does not pronounce the name of the Apostolic one in the canon for whatever reason should realize that he is separated from the communion of the whole world” (Chronicle, p. 228); or by the authority of the famous Alcuin: “It is generally agreed that those who do not for any reason recall the memory of the Apostolic pontiff in the course of the sacred mysteries according to custom are, as the blessed Pelagius teaches, separated from the communion of the entire world” (de Divinis Officiis, bk. 1, chap. 12).

... Thus how can you believe that you are not separated from the communion of the whole world if you do not commemorate my name during the sacred mysteries, according to custom? For you see that the strength of the Apostolic See resides in me, despite my unworthiness, through episcopal succession at the present time” (Labbe, Conciliorum Collectione, vol. 5, col. 794f and 810)." From: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben14/b14exquo.htm

Implicit in these statements is the understanding that (1) one who does not pronounce the name of the Pope recognized by the whole Church is separated from Her, and (2) a Pope recognized by the Church as having succeeded to St. Peter therefore truly has done so.

Another example of Universal Acceptance of the Catholic Hierarchy in the teachings of the Roman Pontiffs and the Papal Magisterium comes from Munificentissimus Deus of Pope Ven. Pius XII, "But those whom "the Holy Spirit has placed as bishops to rule the Church of God"(4) gave an almost unanimous affirmative response to both these questions. This "outstanding agreement of the Catholic prelates and the faithful,"(5) affirming that the bodily Assumption of God's Mother into heaven can be defined as a dogma of faith, since it shows us the concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority and the concordant faith of the Christian people which the same doctrinal authority sustains and directs, thus by itself and in an entirely certain and infallible way, manifests this privilege as a truth revealed by God ... Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof" http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html

Here, the Holy Father argues from the principle of the indefectibility of the OUM and the universal acceptance of the world's Bishops, to show that the Dogmatic Truth of the Assumption was already made manifest "in an entirely certain and infallible way" by the agreement of the OUM before the Holy Father proceeded to define that dogma by virtue of the Extraordinary Magisterium (Teaching Authority).


Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #182 on: October 09, 2019, 04:45:14 PM »

Right, Hunter - I had that one in mind. He says the bishops’ recognition, but its a similar point - the connection of the acceptance by the hierarchy (including bishops and not just cardinals) of the election and papacy.

I don’t believe we have a single cardinal elector doubting the papacy of a V2 pope. What about bishops who were (are) ordinaries? I don’t believe you can name any of them who doubted a V2 pope’s papacy either. Thuc maybe?

And if it’s only one or two, what then?
Agreed.
There is clearly universal consent to the conciliar papacies, and hence they are dogmatic facts which cannot be challenged.

Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #183 on: October 09, 2019, 04:49:14 PM »
Agreed.
There is clearly universal consent to the conciliar papacies, and hence they are dogmatic facts which cannot be challenged.
What could change that is if there were a movement among the bishops which challenged him (per Alphonsus), such as Burke’s movement gaining steam.
Incidentally, this demonstrates that a pope is not deposed without a declaration from the Church, since without a notable number of them disputing the legitimacy (ie., thereby removing the quality of dogmatic fact), the papacy would remain unquestionable dogmatic fact.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: ++Lefebvre and sedevacantism
« Reply #184 on: October 09, 2019, 04:53:13 PM »
Agreed.
There is clearly universal consent to the conciliar papacies, and hence they are dogmatic facts which cannot be challenged.
:)

Well, hold on. I agree that “universal acceptance” as a concept would be bottomed on the cardinals/bishops of the teaching Church accepting the pope, but I haven’t agreed to the “dogmatic fact” thing - going back to my point on Paul IV and cuм Ex.