Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times  (Read 1422 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LeDeg

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 780
  • Reputation: +536/-135
  • Gender: Male
  • I am responsible only to God and history.
Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
« on: May 15, 2024, 12:33:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!9
  • Some interesting pre Vatican II commentary on lawful clergy.

    “Even if valid orders exist, where jurisdiction is lacking there is no real apostolicity. Schism, as well as heresy, destroys apostolic succession,” (Rev. Thomas Cox, “Pillar and Ground of Truth,” 1900).  In his “Manual of Christian Doctrine,” written for religious congregations and Catholic institutions of higher learning, seminary professor Rev. John Joseph McVey wrote in 1926:
    • 60: Who after the pope are lawful pastors of the Church?
    • The bishops who have been canonically instituted, i.e., who have received from the Sovereign Pontiff a diocese to govern.
    • 73: Why is it not sufficient to be a bishop or priest in order to be a lawful pastor?
    • Because a bishop must also be sent into a diocese by the Pope, and a priest must be sent into a parish by the bishop. In other words, a pastor must have not only the power of order, but also THE POWER OF JURISDICTION, (emphasis by the author, Joseph McVey).
    • 77: How is the power of jurisdiction communicated?
    • Priests receive their jurisdiction from the bishop of the diocese; bishops receive theirs from the pope; and the Pope holds jurisdiction from Jesus Christ. A bishop who did not receive his spiritual powers from the Pope and a pastor who did not receive his from a lawful bishop, would be AN INTRUDER OR SCHISMATIC” (emphasis, McVey).
    “If anyone says that…those who have been neither rightly ordained nor sent by ecclesiastical and canonical authority, but come from a different source, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments: let him be anathema,” (DZ 967)
    “At length We beseech you all, beloved Catholic children, in the kingdom of France; as you recall the religion and faith of your fathers, We urge you lovingly not to abandon it. For it is the one true religion which both confers eternal life and makes safe and thriving civil societies. Carefully beware of lending your ears to the treacherous speech of the philosophy of this age which leads to death. Keep away from all intruders, whether called archbishops, bishops, or parish priests; do not hold communion with them especially in divine worship. Listen carefully to the message of your lawful pastors who are still living, and who will be put in charge of you later, according to the canons. Finally, in one word, stay close to Us. For no one can be in the Church of Christ without being in unity with its visible head and founded on the See of Peter.”- Pope Pius VI’s Charitas


    “Every man validly baptized is a member of Christ’s Mystical Body, is a member of the Church.  Now it may well happen that adverse external circuмstances may prevent a man’s character as an incorporated member of the Church being recognized, and the absence of such recognition may involve the juridical denial of all that it involves.  In the eyes of men he may appear to have broken the bond uniting him to the Church, and yet, because of the supernatural faith, and the persistent loving life of grace, whereby he seeks in all things to do the will of God, his union with the Church really continues: spiritually he remains a member of the Church, he belongs to the body of the Church.  He may, all the time, through error, be giving his external adhesion to a religious society which cannot be part of the Church.  But at heart, by internal and implicit allegiance, he may be a faithful member of the Church. Evidently, if the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, then to be outside the Mystical Body is to be outside the Church, and since there is no salvation outside the Mystical Body, there is no salvation outside the Church.  But, as we have seen, a man’s juridical situation is not necessarily his situation before God,” (The Mystical Body of Christ.” Taken from The Teaching of the Catholic Church,” by Can. George D. Smith, D.D., Ph.D., Vol. II; 1959, first printing 1927.)


    Council of Chalcedon:
    Canon 6: No one is to be promoted to the priesthood or deaconate or to any other ecclesiastical order, unless the one to be promoted is specially affiliated to a church or a city or village, or a martyry or monastery. In regard to those who have been ordained absolutely, the holy council decided that such ordination is invalid, and that they can function nowhere to the disgrace of the one who ordained them.
    Commentary in Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils: The council declared absolute ordinations, that is, sine titulo, invalid. Though it used the word (null, void), it is very probable that it had in mind “void of effect” through permanent suspension, (Pg. 96. See Mansi, VII, 901, 945.)

    Pope Pius VI, Charitas:

    For the right of ordaining bishops—belongs only to the Apostolic See, as the Council of Trent declares; it cannot be assumed by any bishop or metropolitan without obliging Us to declare schismatic both those who ordain and those who are ordained, thus invalidating their future actions. They dared to do this, even though the first two of these churches have their own lawful pastors and the other two have not yet been created episcopal sees by Apostolic Authority. So today the Pope as a duty of his office appoints bishops for each of the churches, and no lawful consecration may take place in the entire Catholic Church without the order of the Apostolic See (Trent, session 24, chap. 1, de Reformat.)

    Council of Trent: Session 6, Canon 5 on reform:

    No bishop is allowed under pretext of any privilege to exercise the pontifical functions in the diocese of another, except with the expressed permission of the ordinary of the place, and for those persons only who are subject to the same ordinary. If the contrary is done, the bishop is ipso jure suspended from the exercise of pontifical functions and those so ordained from the exercise of their orders.



    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4115
    • Reputation: +2425/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #1 on: May 15, 2024, 01:05:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This has been answered already.


    Offline ihsv

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 742
    • Reputation: +1031/-133
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #2 on: May 15, 2024, 03:55:09 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Really?  You derail a previous thread and attack the papacy by posting anti-Catholic sources, now you create a new thread sowing more doubts and confusion.

    Very interesting.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12464
    • Reputation: +7913/-2449
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #3 on: May 15, 2024, 04:30:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Please click on the "report to moderator" button and notify Matthew, so he can ban this guy.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32948
    • Reputation: +29256/-597
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #4 on: May 15, 2024, 04:34:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How disingenuous, dishonest can you get?

    Several quotes talking about NORMAL TIMES (Council of Trent, etc. centuries ago) and LITERALLY applying it to modern times, as if those Councils spelled out, "This is for YOU. Yes, you with the face! Living in a time of Crisis, in the 21st century. I'm talking to YOU, yes YOU!"

    Uh, no.

    We are well aware of the need for jurisdiction, Papal appointment, etc. during NORMAL TIMES.

    Guess what? There's this little thing called the CRISIS IN THE CHURCH which makes the Great Schism or the Arian heresy seem tame by comparison.

    This is by far the worst crisis, the most subtle error, the greatest period of confusion the Church has *ever* lived through, bar none.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32948
    • Reputation: +29256/-597
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #5 on: May 15, 2024, 04:38:11 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • So what's your game, LeDeg? You would seem to be against even the dogmatic Sedevacantists here. Certainly against anything calling itself "Traditional Catholic".

    You seem to be one of those "dogmatic home aloners" who reject both the Conciliar Church novelties/heresies, as well as the entire Traditional movement, deciding that we must sit home alone indefinitely, until God sorts it all out. Nevermind the fact that LIFE GOES ON, and we need confession, marriage, extreme unction, not to mention the graces of the Mass, the guidance of priests, etc.

    There is no group I am more against, than those who claim to be Catholic, who oppose the Conciliar Church, but who EQUALLY reject the lifeboats God provided in the form of the Traditional Movement. It's like rejecting the Catholic Church.

    It's worse than the apostasy and infidelity of the atheists, heretics, and schismatics -- even the perfidious Jews -- because these "dogmatic home aloners" are supposed to be inside the bosom of the Church. YET they reject the Catholic Church with all the same vehemence.

    I have to underline this point. Dogmatic home aloners claim to see the need for the Catholic Faith, they claim to be part of it, to see its truth -- yet they utterly reject it when it stares them in the face (the Traditional Movement). This can't be said about ANY of the other faithless reprobate groups (heretics, schismatics, jews, atheists). None of those groups claims to identify with Christ's Catholic Church.

    There's a certain malice there, a certain laser-focused evil, which I don't see in any of those other "enemies of the Faith".

    Again, my definition: a Dogmatic Home Aloner is one who rejects the Traditional Movement, ALL groups, not because they don't happen to have a chapel nearby that they can attend in good conscience, but on principle/dogma. For example, saying that the Trad Movement isn't legitimate, they don't have jurisdiction, it's not "legit" to set up lifeboat chapels at all, etc. Hence the adjective "dogmatic".

    It reminds me of the Pharisees. Matthew 23:13: "But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter."

    A "practical" or "non-dogmatic" home aloner is just a Catholic with bad luck with regards to geography and real estate.

    It's like the difference between a "spontaneous abortion" (miscarriage) and an abortion. There's no comparison between the two, morally speaking. They both result in a dead baby, but one of those was by choice, the other was by circuмstances outside one's control.
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6477/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #6 on: May 15, 2024, 04:57:12 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • So what's your game, LeDeg? You would seem to be against even the dogmatic Sedevacantists here. Certainly against anything calling itself "Traditional Catholic".

    You seem to be one of those "dogmatic home aloners" who reject both the Conciliar Church novelties/heresies, as well as the entire Traditional movement, deciding that we must sit home alone indefinitely, until God sorts it all out. Nevermind the fact that LIFE GOES ON, and we need confession, marriage, extreme unction, not to mention the graces of the Mass, the guidance of priests, etc.

    There is no group I am more against, than those who claim to be Catholic, who oppose the Conciliar Church, but who EQUALLY reject the lifeboats God provided in the form of the Traditional Movement. It's like rejecting the Catholic Church.

    It's worse than the apostasy and infidelity of the atheists, heretics, and schismatics -- even the perfidious Jews -- because these "dogmatic home aloners" are supposed to be inside the bosom of the Church. YET they reject the Catholic Church with all the same vehemence.

    I have to underline this point. Dogmatic home aloners claim to see the need for the Catholic Faith, they claim to be part of it, to see its truth -- yet they utterly reject it when it stares them in the face (the Traditional Movement). This can't be said about ANY of the other faithless reprobate groups (heretics, schismatics, jews, atheists). None of those groups claims to identify with Christ's Catholic Church.

    There's a certain malice there, a certain laser-focused evil, which I don't see in any of those other "enemies of the Faith".

    Again, my definition: a Dogmatic Home Aloner is one who rejects the Traditional Movement, ALL groups, not because they don't happen to have a chapel nearby that they can attend in good conscience, but on principle/dogma. For example, saying that the Trad Movement isn't legitimate, they don't have jurisdiction, it's not "legit" to set up lifeboat chapels at all, etc. Hence the adjective "dogmatic".

    It reminds me of the Pharisees. Matthew 23:13: "But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter."

    A "practical" or "non-dogmatic" home aloner is just a Catholic with bad luck with regards to geography and real estate.

    It's like the difference between a "spontaneous abortion" (miscarriage) and an abortion. There's no comparison between the two, morally speaking. They both result in a dead baby, but one of those was by choice, the other was by circuмstances outside one's control.
    I seem to recall Eastern Orthodoxy, not Home Aloneism.

    Offline rosarytrad

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 306
    • Reputation: +228/-25
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #7 on: May 15, 2024, 06:16:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Again, my definition: a Dogmatic Home Aloner is one who rejects the Traditional Movement, ALL groups, not because they don't happen to have a chapel nearby that they can attend in good conscience, but on principle/dogma. For example, saying that the Trad Movement isn't legitimate, they don't have jurisdiction, it's not "legit" to set up lifeboat chapels at all, etc. Hence the adjective "dogmatic".

    It reminds me of the Pharisees. Matthew 23:13: "But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter."
    I am the first to say that I enjoy the Dimond Brothers… but when I first started reading these sorts of things on their site I knew that that couldn't be true or wise to follow. The gates of hell have prevailed if that's the case. And being Catholic means I don't follow the teachings of men but of God. Home aloneism is untenable, and when taken to its logical and practical conclusions it is a wicked “dogma” to push. Every traditionalist group that forces laity to hold some “dogma” in this crisis may not in fact be the dimond brothers but when they do things like that they are behaving in the same spirit. Interesting indeed. That quote from the gospel is great, Matthew. Thanks for sharing that. 👍

    Threads like these make me wish DigitalLogos was still active.

    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a
    St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    St. John of God, pray for us.
    Our Lady of Guadalupe, mystical rose, make intercession for Holy Church.


    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1573
    • Reputation: +1286/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #8 on: May 15, 2024, 07:43:58 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Where is the difficulty?
    The law and obedience are at the service of the Faith and the salvation of souls.
    Supplied jurisdiction is real jurisdiction, not some fabrication, it is the law.
    Simple, unlearned Catholics with the Faith know this without any explanation, it is Catholic common sense.

    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 32948
    • Reputation: +29256/-597
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #9 on: May 15, 2024, 08:36:55 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Actually, it's a bit more complicated what a "dogmatic home aloner" consists of.

    It's about holding extra dogmas (not part of the Catholic Faith) and holding *anyone* to them, blocking their path to a Traditional chapel. It could be themselves, it could be others.  It could be both.

    It could be the novel dogma that attending a Mass "una cuм" Francisco means you are "one with his heresies", and so you must stay home alone.
    It could be the curious belief that God left us *no* way out in this Crisis, that the Traditional Movement isn't legitimate. (Come on, it's hard enough to drive to a Traditional chapel. You call that convenient?)

    So even if they PERSONALLY go to Mass every Sunday (because they're in some sort of cult, with only 1 or 2 "valid chapels" in the whole world) they are still a dogmatic home aloner. Because they indeed teach that 99.99% of the world must stay home alone, because they can't drive to their one Catholic chapel. Get it?

    They usually don't leave it up to the individual person to decide for themselves how to keep the Faith -- no, it's always a matter of doctrine or dogma for them. They believe they can impose upon (or "bind") the consciences of others. Hence my term "dogmatic home aloner".
    Want to say "thank you"? 
    You can send me a gift from my Amazon wishlist!
    https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

    My accounts (Paypal, Venmo) have been (((shut down))) PM me for how to donate and keep the forum going.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46914
    • Reputation: +27780/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #10 on: May 15, 2024, 09:57:36 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • So what's your game, LeDeg? You would seem to be against even the dogmatic Sedevacantists here. 

    See some of the threads in which we've called LePontrello out for promoting Eastern Orthodoxy.  He appears to be a disciple, protege, or associate of John Pontrello ... if he isn't Pontrello himself.  I'm beginning to think he has a nefarious agenda.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46914
    • Reputation: +27780/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #11 on: May 15, 2024, 10:10:18 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Canon Law is designed for the proper ordering of the Church in normal times.  In times of disarray, confusion, persecution, necessity, and turmoil, apart from those elements in Canon Law that are mere restatements of Divine Law or natural law, the rest are prudential calculations for keeping proper order in the Church during normal times, with all of them ultimately being ordered toward the salus animarum.  And, during normal times, that's exactly what those laws do.  In times of crisis, however, some of the human-law canonical provisions could in fact militate against the overaching principle of the salvation of souls.  In normal times, during the 1940s or 1950s, no priest could just decide to break off and set up his own chapel and his own "Society" of priests.  But during things like persecution under the Communists or the Arian crisis (where orthodox bishops went around consecrating Catholic bishops that had been usurped by Arians), or now the Conciliar Crisis, where 95% of the putative hierarchy and faithful demonstrably lack the Catholic faith (denying, by their own polls, one dogma or another), and yet have wrested control of the material offices from Catholics, all that goes out the window.  There's such a thing as material error as well, such as the famous case of St. Vincent Ferrer siding with an Antipope.  Did he thereby lose his "canonical mission"?  Of course not, since theologians explain that you can retain your jurisdiction (such as for him to hear Confessions) even via "color of title".  This is a Salza-esque reduction of the Church to legalisms (and human-law legalisms at that), to the point that those guys must conclude that Joe Biden is more Catholic than Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Here's a solid example of where lower-level laws are ordered to the higher-level, and if the lower-level laws militate against the higher-level laws, not only are they no longer binding, but in fact they are prohibited by the higher-level law against which they militate.  We are required to rebuke the sinner.  But, as St. Thomas and St. Augustine explain, not only are we not bound to rebuke a sinner if we judge in prudence that he will not be corrected, but we may even be forbidden from doing so if we judge that the sinner would double down and be even worse if rebuked.  Why?  Because the overarching and guiding principle is the correction and salvation of the sinner, and that is the higher end to which the law/command to rebuke sinners is rightly ordered, and in some cases rebuking the sinner could in fact militate against that end, so in rebuking the sinner you might be undermining the rationale for why (under normal circuмstances) we are required to rebuke sinners.  [There are, of course, other prudential considerations here, such as the sinner's possible effect on others, etc. ... which are omitted here for the sake of simplicity and assumed not to factor into the scenario.]

    I also like how Salza / Siscoe made up this principle that if you don't have "mission" from the Church, miracles are required to prove that God gave you a mission.  This is hogwash, and they're thinking of examples like St. Paul, who was sent as an Apostle in an extraordinary fashion, but that was a different time in the Church.  In reality, under normal circuмstances, no purpurted "miracle" could supply for lack of "mission" in the Church.  So some priest in the 1930s works some "miracles" and that becomes proof that he has a direct divine mission to set up his own chapel not in communion with the Holy See?  Ridiculous.  Nor are miracles required to act outside of normal canon law, since we know of no miracles performed by a St. Athanasius, who went around replacing Arian bishops who had usurped various Sees, often doing so not only without the Pope's blessing but even against his wishes (though the latter may arguably have been only under duress).

    If you take Salza's absurd position to its logical conclusion, if in fact some Arian had usurped the papacy (been elected by Arian Cardinals), which was, naturally speaking, a real possibility, since some estimates were that 97-99% of the episcopal sees had been usurped by Arians, then the Arian pope would be the Church, and the Arians he appointed would have been the legitimate bishops with their "mission" while those whom he excommunicated, like St. Athanasius et al., would have been outside the Church.  Talk about some kind of diabolical inversion in the thinking of ex(?)-Freemason John Salza.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46914
    • Reputation: +27780/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #12 on: May 15, 2024, 10:25:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Really?  You derail a previous thread and attack the papacy by posting anti-Catholic sources, now you create a new thread sowing more doubts and confusion.

    Very interesting.

    See, I might think that he's simply promoting the Salza/Siscoe position, except on those other threads he was attacking the Papacy in general and promoting Pontrello and Eastern Orthodoxy.  In other words, he's not citing this stuff in order to promote the Salza/Sicoe position but using it as another oblique (disguised) attack against Catholicism in general.

    He never answered my question about whether in fact he is John Pontrello.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/the-strongest-argument-against-the-papacy-(pope-vigilius)-refuted/msg936568/#msg936568

    That makes me suspect even more that he is Pontrello.

    We know that Pontrello reads/follows CathInfo, since he dedicated an entire tab on his blog site to attacking me.  Similarly, LeDeg appears to follow Pontrello, since within minutes of Pontrello launching his attack on me, he started a thread about it on CI.  So Pontrello follows CI while LeDeg hangs out at CI and follows Pontrello.  He praised Pontrello as having made many good/solid points that Traditional Catholics have not adequately answered.  So my conclusions is that either LeDeg = Pontrello or he's somehow associated with him, or at the very least one of his "followers" who comes here to troll against Catholicism.  I don't think he's sincere and well-intentioned in terms of his presence here on CI.

    Interestingly, Pontrello was at one point backing Salza/Siscoe for attacking Traditional Catholicism, so it wouldn't be out of character for him to use Salza/Siscoe material (which I believe constituted much of the text in the OP) as a weapon against Traditional Catholics.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46914
    • Reputation: +27780/-5163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #13 on: May 15, 2024, 10:35:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pontrello in his post attacking me:
    https://www.thesedevacantistdelusion.com/ladislaus

    Quote
    John Salza & Robert Siscoe, authors of  "True or False Pope" put a piece together titled “Meet the Sedevacantist Antipopes.”  I recommend it.

    So, while Salza and Siscoe have not (yet) become Eastern Orthodox, and would currently reject Pontrello's views, that never stopped Pontrello from using S&S against sedevacantists.

    In fact, in most of his post about me, he was attacking me for going after someone who was promoting him here on CI.

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1573
    • Reputation: +1286/-100
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Lawful Clergy in Modern Times
    « Reply #14 on: May 15, 2024, 11:58:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Canon Law is designed for the proper ordering of the Church in normal times.  In times of disarray, confusion, persecution, necessity, and turmoil, apart from those elements in Canon Law that are mere restatements of Divine Law or natural law, the rest are prudential calculations for keeping proper order in the Church during normal times, with all of them ultimately being ordered toward the salus animarum.  And, during normal times, that's exactly what those laws do.  In times of crisis, however, some of the human-law canonical provisions could in fact militate against the overaching principle of the salvation of souls.  In normal times, during the 1940s or 1950s, no priest could just decide to break off and set up his own chapel and his own "Society" of priests.  But during things like persecution under the Communists or the Arian crisis (where orthodox bishops went around consecrating Catholic bishops that had been usurped by Arians), or now the Conciliar Crisis, where 95% of the putative hierarchy and faithful demonstrably lack the Catholic faith (denying, by their own polls, one dogma or another), and yet have wrested control of the material offices from Catholics, all that goes out the window.  There's such a thing as material error as well, such as the famous case of St. Vincent Ferrer siding with an Antipope.  Did he thereby lose his "canonical mission"?  Of course not, since theologians explain that you can retain your jurisdiction (such as for him to hear Confessions) even via "color of title".  This is a Salza-esque reduction of the Church to legalisms (and human-law legalisms at that), to the point that those guys must conclude that Joe Biden is more Catholic than Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Here's a solid example of where lower-level laws are ordered to the higher-level, and if the lower-level laws militate against the higher-level laws, not only are they no longer binding, but in fact they are prohibited by the higher-level law against which they militate.
    Yes, good explanation. If LeDeg wants to know about lawful clergy, he might start by reading about law in St Thomas: "In time of necessity, there is no law" - S. Th. IaIIae Q96 A6. "Since then the lawgiver cannot have in view every single case, he shapes the law according to what happens most frequently... Wherefore, if a case arise wherein the observance of that law would be harmful to the common good, it should not be observed".