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Author Topic: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty  (Read 3079 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2020, 09:41:09 AM »
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  • At my SSPX chapel the sermons we receive are insipid. There is never a sermon about how the Catholic faith is lived in our times. No how to instructions, their solution to the crisis of the faith we are living in, is just bible explanations,  catechism, and forced aloud "active participation" in the mass.

    For those priests with ears that hear and eyes that see, the sheet below which I received at an SSPX retreat in 1997 at Ridgefield, CT, can serve as the template for their sermons for the rest of their lives as priest. Explain what these quotes mean, how they apply today and you have done the job God has given you.  Here is just one example, and THE sin that takes almost all sinners to hell:

    "Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned". (St. Remigius of Rheims)

    How does that apply today today? -  Men that watch pornography, movies with impurity of the flesh, going to a beach where women are in bikinis. Women dressing in immodest clothes that send men to hell. Women kissing, fondling and fornicating before marriage. False annulments = living in adultery. Adultery, divorced and re-married going to communion.........

    A priest in his lifetime will not complete the use of this one sheet and will save innumerable souls (his purpose in life). Yet most priest will not venture to go there, because "they are afraid of scaring people away", and so they will continue with their insipid sermons about non-offensive subjects like the bible and catechism, and "active participation"  with no how to apply them to life.



    THE TEACHINGS OF THE FATHERS, DOCTORS AND SAINTS OF THE CHURCH UPON THE FINAL DESTINY OF MOST PEOPLE.

    Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost for ever. (St. John Neuman)

    It is certain that few are saved. (St. Augustine)

    The majority of men shall not see God. (St. Julian the Martyr)

    The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love almighty God. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

    So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved. (St. Philip Neri)

    Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

    Death bed conversions/repentance-there are hardly any: Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:

    The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few  -  not as many as ten  -   went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO HELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid-winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)

    There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

    The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.
    ( Pope St. Gregory the Great)

    Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to heaven? Alas, my children we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter. (St. John Vianney)
    --------------------------------------------

    MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:

    I do not speak rashly, but how I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are more numerous. ( St. John Chrysostom)

    St. John Chrysostom, sometime Patriarch of Constantinople, has something to say, and to such a personage your author relinquishes the floor:

    I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein.

    Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)


    Many religious go to Hell because they do not keep their vows. (St. Vincent Ferrer)
    --------------------------------------------------------

    CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:

    They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)

    They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

    St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

    How many inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to say is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with it's thousands of inhabitants, not 100 people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! ( St. John Chrysostom - the city was Antioch and its inhabitants were known to be in pursuit of comfort and the good things of things life.)

    A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard their also died 79,999 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved. So out of 80,000 dead, 79,997 went to Hell! )

    In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

    Yes indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved. (St. Benedict Joseph Labro)

    If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

    He who goes to Hell, goes of his own accord. Everyone who is damned, is damned because he wills his own damnation. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT THE FAITH CAN ALSO GO TO HELL:

    When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

    Everyone that is of truth hears my voice. (St. John 18:37)

    It may be true that there are, in the remotest parts of the world, some people who have not yet seen the light of the Savior. Certainly, God's manifold and ineffable goodness has always provided, and still provides, for all mankind in such a way that not one of the reprobates can find an excuse as though he had been refused the light of truth. ( St. Prosper of Aquitaine)

    No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION:

    No matter how praiseworthy his actions might seem, he who is separated from the Catholic Church will never enjoy eternal life (Pope Gregory XVI)

    O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jews who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. O holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)



    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #16 on: November 25, 2020, 09:44:58 AM »
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  • A priest in his lifetime will not complete the use of this one sheet and will save innumerable souls (his purpose in life). Yet most priest will not venture to go there, because "they are afraid of scaring people away", and so they will continue with their insipid sermons about non-offensive subjects like the bible and catechism, and "active participation"  with no how to apply them to life.
    St. John Chrysostom, sometime Patriarch of Constantinople, has something to say, and to such a personage your author relinquishes the floor:

    I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein.

    Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles) 


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #17 on: November 25, 2020, 09:55:30 AM »
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  • As the eldest daughter of the Church, so goes France, so goes the Church.  And as the Church's eldest daughter, France has clearly been the target of spiritual attack for at least as long as the U.S. has been a country. Can you imagine what the U.S. would be like today if at some point it outlawed the Catholic Church, as well as kicked out and/or killed the vast majority of its religious?  In that regard alone, I'll give France my support rather than turn my back on it in disgust.  

    As for France being "extremely racist" I'm not even sure what that means.  "Racist" towards whom?  North African Mohammedans? Jews? Catholics? (BTW, Catholicism is not a race). I've spent time in France, and found that even towards Americans the French are warm and welcoming. This is especially true once one leaves the larger cities and travels throughout the countryside.  
    That is side tracking of the thread. Your comment is irrelevant to the OP. Fr. Chazal is a French priest, this is not about French priests and French and France being "evil". The fact remains that the Dialogue mass was never accepted by English speaking countries, like the USA. It is a novelty, invented in the 1920's. Foreign priests are expected to respect the customs of the countries to which they are assigned. Moreover, the fact that less than 4% of French go to mass, shows that their "system" is not one for the USA to emulate.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #18 on: November 25, 2020, 10:05:32 AM »
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  • So not only does this appear to be a problem of the priests, but one that has been around for years, and is only now more apparent because of the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."

    Looks like your chapel needs American priests.  Aren't there any?  If not, why not?
    The problem is not that they are French, I remind everyone that Fr. Chazal, Fr. Morel and many other good priests are French. The problem is that these particular French priests do not respect the customs of the country and want to change them to what they think is better or what is done in France (I do not know what is done in France, I don't have to know anything about what is done in France, I only need to know the customs of my country, the USA). 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #19 on: November 25, 2020, 11:44:32 AM »
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  • The problem is not that they are French, I remind everyone that Fr. Chazal, Fr. Morel and many other good priests are French. The problem is that these particular French priests do not respect the customs of the country and want to change them to what they think is better or what is done in France (I do not know what is done in France, I don't have to know anything about what is done in France, I only need to know the customs of my country, the USA).
    Fr. LeRoux (Rector, St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary) would be a Frenchman who fits that description:
    Once he replaced Bishop Williamson, he began importing French pre-conciliar liturgical movement practices (eg., standing during Agnus Dei, Sanctus, repeating the Domine non sum dignus with the priest, etc.).
    Then, as the old adage says, “The way YOU learned it is the right way,” once these priest were ordained (2009+), they started changing and incorporating these practices into their own chapels (overturning a 40 year custom at my own chapel, and 97% of the faithful just going along with it).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #20 on: November 25, 2020, 03:40:40 PM »
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  • Fr. LeRoux (Rector, St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary) would be a Frenchman who fits that description:
    Once he replaced Bishop Williamson, he began importing French pre-conciliar liturgical movement practices (eg., standing during Agnus Dei, Sanctus, repeating the Domine non sum dignus with the priest, etc.).
    Then, as the old adage says, “The way YOU learned it is the right way,”
    If "the way I learned was the right way", I would still be chasing bikini clad girls on the beach, partying with all my money, instead of  getting married and sacrificing my life to bring up 6 children in the truth of the faith. If these French had eyes to see, they would see the error of their ways and learn to respect the customs of this country and realize that they are wrong, and that their French customs belong to France (where by the way, it has resulted in over 96% of the laity becoming exiles from the mass).

    The customs of this country are the result of 300+ years of masses by thousands of clergy and millions of worshippers all from every country in Europe (Spain, Ireland, England, Italy, Poland, France, Germany....) The French customs are from France only. Even the customs of the French Canadians is not the same as the French.

    Imagine if Bp. Williamson was the rector of a French seminary and he attempted to change the French customs to what the English practice!

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #21 on: November 26, 2020, 11:03:15 AM »
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  • That is side tracking of the thread. Your comment is irrelevant to the OP.


    The problem is not that they are French..., [t]he problem is that these particular French priests do not respect the customs of the country and want to change them to what they think is better or what is done in France (I do not know what is done in France, I don't have to know anything about what is done in France, I only need to know the customs of my country, the USA).

    To the contrary, your comments blaming French priests and, more importantly, "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." is not only side-tracking, but is scapegoating. Nor was I the one who begun blaming France for the introduction of your dialog Masses.

    You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?  My assumption would be (similar to many Novus Ordo parishes in the U.S.) because you don't have enough American priests to fill vacancies and/or meet the needs of your chapel.  In that regard, do you not see the irony in picking on France (with its alleged 4% Mass attendance) when your very own country can not produce enough of its own priests and therefore has to rely on French priests!?

    :facepalm:

    As I stated earlier, in connection with your situation, the problem you address has obviously been around since prior to the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees...." invading your sacred space, and yet, it does not appear you did anything to rectify the situation prior.  Which brings me to this point:
    This is the responsibility of the priest.  He should lead, not "they" (us).  The reason that a trad church I attend is not suffering from this, despite being similarly "overrun" by clueless N.O. refugees, is that the priest makes clear who is in charge -- not laity, as in the N.O., but clergy.
     

    So which is it?  On the one hand Last Tradhican is complaining that the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." are being instructed by, and listening to, the priest, and on the other hand MMagdala asserts that the priest is in charge, which includes reigning in the "...clueless N.O. refugees...."  

    Seems to be a lot of scapegoating going on around here.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #22 on: November 26, 2020, 11:25:58 AM »
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  • To the contrary, your comments blaming French priests and, more importantly, "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." is not only side-tracking, but is scapegoating. Nor was I the one who begun blaming France for the introduction of your dialog Masses.

    You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?  My assumption would be (similar to many Novus Ordo parishes in the U.S.) because you don't have enough American priests to fill vacancies and/or meet the needs of your chapel.  In that regard, do you not see the irony in picking on France (with its alleged 4% Mass attendance) when your very own country can not produce enough of its own priests and therefore has to rely on French priests!?

    :facepalm:

    As I stated earlier, in connection with your situation, the problem you address has obviously been around since prior to the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees...." invading your sacred space, and yet, it does not appear you did anything to rectify the situation prior.  Which brings me to this point:

    So which is it?  On the one hand Last Tradhican is complaining that the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." are being instructed by, and listening to, the priest, and on the other hand MMagdala asserts that the priest is in charge, which includes reigning in the "...clueless N.O. refugees...."  

    Seems to be a lot of scapegoating going on around here.
    I'm sorry but your comments make no sense whatsoever. Maybe you have a language problem?


    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #23 on: November 26, 2020, 11:46:38 AM »
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  • The French do have a superiority complex, and that includes their race. They are extremely racist, and I've heard this from friends who saw it first-hand. I guess that makes it second-hand for me. But I completely trust the Trads who reported these things, so I consider it a fact.

    Good analogy. Whatever the French are doing, we should avoid by all means! Who wants 4% Mass attendance? They've lost it.
    The major trad apostolates include many internationals, because they're all international orders in terms of reach.  In some orders, those European priests who by personality or background will be able to adapt better to American culture are given the choice or assignment to work here in the States.  Those French priests who are here, of those I have met, far prefer the U.S. to France as a place to minister -- for reasons other posters have named.  Certain other priests prefer the restrictions in France or the anti-trad social/religious climate in their own different European homeland to the crass commercialism, bureaucracy, and various undesirable aspects of American culture.  Really depends on the individual priest, his capacity, and what he despises less-- to put it in the negative. The French trad priests that I know are hardly doing things the modern French way in this country.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #24 on: November 26, 2020, 11:59:03 AM »
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  • I'm sorry but your comments make no sense whatsoever. Maybe you have a language problem?

    Really?

    What part of --You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?--did you fail to understand?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #25 on: November 26, 2020, 12:33:14 PM »
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  • You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?--did you fail to understand?
    That's a good question to ask the Superior General or the District Superior, not me. Your question can start a whole other thread. That is why I didn't answer you:

    - Why do they have foreign priests running chapels in the USA? 
    - Why have the last two USA District Superiors before Fr. Fullerton been foreigners? 
    - Why was the English speaking former rector of the American seminary (Bp. Williamson) that does not speak Spanish, sent to be the rector of the seminary in Argentina, and replaced in the USA by a French rector (Fr. LeRoux) that hardly spoke English. 
    - At my chapel we have 6 American priests under the two French priests. There are more American priests than there are places to send them, so it is not because their is a shortage of priests in the USA.




    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #26 on: November 26, 2020, 12:44:28 PM »
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  • That's a good question to ask the Superior General or the District Superior, not me. That is why I didn't answer you.  

    Then instead of whining about your dialog Masses here, why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom?  Would seem a lot more logical than scapegoating "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #27 on: November 26, 2020, 01:09:09 PM »
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  • Then instead of whining about your dialog Masses here, why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom?  Would seem a lot more logical than scapegoating "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."
    Your "scapegoating ignorant Novus Ordo's"  is a strawman. We do not have a dialogue mass at my chapel except for the children's mass. There's no point in responding to your incoherence except this last answer:


    Quote
    why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom
    What do you think this thread was for, to bring this to your attention? 

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #28 on: November 26, 2020, 01:13:11 PM »
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  • Your "scapegoating ignorant Novus Ordo's"  is a strawman. We do not have a dialogue mass at my chapel except for the children's mass. There's no point in responding to your incoherence except this last answer:

    You contradict yourself.

    At my SSPX Chapel, it is 1962 all over again and everyone has been instructed [by the priests] to scream out responses, even at a Low Mass. Being that the chapel is now predominately populated by ignorant Novus Ordo refugees from "pandemic" closed churches and churches where they have to wear a mask, they know nothing else and lead the way. Soon we will not need the altar servers to speak, for the congregation will scream out all the responses.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
    « Reply #29 on: November 26, 2020, 01:22:11 PM »
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  • You contradict yourself.
    It is a contradiction only to you because you do not know what a Dialogue Mass is. Nor is your reading comprehension cohesive.