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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on November 24, 2020, 10:16:16 AM

Title: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 24, 2020, 10:16:16 AM
from: https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f192_Dialogue_99.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f192_Dialogue_99.htm)

Dialogue Mass - XCIX
The Devil in the Rubrics
Dr. Carol Byrne, Great Britain

As the history of the Liturgical Movement has shown, the reformers from Benedictine monk Dom Lambert Beauduin (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f075_Dialogue_3.htm) to Vatican II went to great lengths to make the faithful believe that the clergy are not the only members of the Church with a right to perform the liturgy. According to their “new theology,” responsibility for enacting the Church’s worship is entrusted to all the People of God by virtue of their common Baptism. And that is fundamentally why “active participation” of all the laity became their watchword.

The revolution from above

Pius XII greatly aided this new direction by officially endorsing lay “active participation” as part of what he called a “liturgical apostolate” (Mediator Dei § 109) ‒ a direction replicated and developed by Paul VI in the Constitution on the Liturgy. (1)

This consideration will help us to realize how revolutionary was Pius XII’s policy of enacting legislation to enable all the members of the congregation to take a direct and active part in the Church’s rites. Tucked away in his new Ordo of Holy Week (1956) were rubrical instructions that specifically required their “active participation” in the ceremonies.


(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_McM.jpg)Fr. Frederick McManus performing
a Television Age Mass in 1969
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Fr. Frederick McManus (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f099_Dialogue_20.htm), a major figure in the reform, made the following statement as soon as the new Holy Week Ordo was issued:

“The rubrics of the Ordo refer constantly to the responses to be made by the members of the congregation and to their activity in the carrying out of the holy liturgy. This is of course a notable departure from the rubrical norms of the Roman Missal”. [Emphasis added] (2)

He went on to explain that the “active participation” of the congregation is “made a matter of rubrical law and incorporated into the very text of the new liturgical book.” (3)

But in the Roman Rite before the Liturgical Movement, there had never been any official rubrics assigned by the Church for the laity. The Missal of Pope Pius V (1570) contained rubrics for the priest and his ministers to perform the sacred ceremonies, but none for the people in the pews. (4) And this position was enshrined in the 1917 Code of Canon Law. (5)

As a canon lawyer, Fr. McManus would have realized the contradictory nature of Pius XII’s innovation and its full significance for the Liturgical Movement’s goals. The primary characteristic of this breakthrough was the profound challenge it posed to the foundations of the ordained priesthood, which set the clergy apart from the laity, and gave them the exclusive right to perform the Church’s official liturgy.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_60s.jpg)A priest facing the people who are now participating actively in a 1969 Mass
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The new rubrical law was based on the premise that lay people were entitled to a role as “actors” in the liturgy, with an officially recognized right to active involvement in the external rites alongside the clergy. It was a reversal of Canon 1256 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which reiterated the traditional position that the Church’s public worship is a function of its legitimately appointed clergy. The wall separating the ordained from the non-ordained was now breached.

The introduction of rubrical laws into the Missal to legitimize the responses of the congregation and “their activity in the carrying out of the holy liturgy” was, as Fr. McManus observed, an unprecedented step. No Pope, least of all Pius X, had ever done anything like it before. Whereas previous editions of the Missal gave instructions only to the server, deacon or choir to give certain responses to the priest, the new rubrics included the whole congregation in this function.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_For.jpg)Fr. Fortescue: Liturgical rubrics apply to those who assist officially the Mass, not the laity
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This decision was certainly problematic in expressing as a rule of law something that had previously been considered illegitimate. The rubrics of the Missal were, by their very nature, laws requiring obedience from those who were responsible for performing the Church’s liturgy. They were never intended for the laity. Fr. Adrian Fortescue pointed out in 1920 that “lay people in the body of the church … enjoy a natural liberty,” and that the liturgical rubrics apply only to “those who assist more officially, the server, clergy, others in choir, and so on.” (6)

Such a remarkable departure from tradition surely calls for a consideration of its legal and constitutional basis. We need to be clear whether it was a just law promoting the Common Good, and in what way it can be said to reflect the constitution of the Church. This had been defined by Pope Pius X as “inherently (“vi et natura sua”) an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful.” (7)

In two minds

Pius XII stated in Mediator Dei § 93 that the action of the liturgy was the privilege only of the priest, and that the faithful participate by uniting their hearts with his intentions. Thus he upheld the immemorial practice of the Roman Rite in which the priest performed the visible, external rite, while the faithful present joined their prayers mentally with the actions of the priest, and offered spiritual sacrifices.

But in §105 of the same docuмent, he rendered this teaching incoherent by conferring on the members of the congregation the right to become directly involved in the liturgical action “in an external way.”

The licensing of disorder

The problem, therefore, with the new legislation was that it was constructed on ambivalence. The role of the priest in the Mass was no longer “fixed” but relativized by being shared on an active level with the people. It introduced the spirit of democracy into the Church years before Vatican II. One cannot interfere with the basic order observed for centuries in the Church without inviting harmful collateral consequences.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_Equ.jpg)The spirit of revolutionary equality &
fraternity entered the Church
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There is something unreal and unacceptable from a Catholic point of view about this development on account of the insuperable ontological and doctrinal problems it poses. For priests and faithful of the Roman Rite, there was the danger that it would distort their perception of the hierarchical nature of the Church and engender confusion in their minds about the distinction between ordination and simple baptism.

And that is precisely the position in which the post-conciliar Church finds itself with the whole People of God jointly celebrating the Mass and Sacraments by reason of their “common priesthood.” Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy (§ 31), developing the principle started by Pius XII, stipulated that when the liturgical books were revised, they “must carefully attend to the provision of rubrics also for the people’s parts.”

One does not need to be an expert in liturgiology to see the likely effect this would have on a Catholic understanding of the Mass and the priesthood. It would undermine the very notion of exclusivity at the heart of the ordained priesthood: it is, after all, the Mass that makes the priest and gives him his identity.

When the General Instruction of the Novus Ordo was produced in 1969, Cardinal Ottaviani noted its “obsessive references to the communal character of the Mass,” adding that “the role attributed to the faithful is autonomous, absolute – and hence completely false,” and that “the people themselves appear to be invested with autonomous priestly powers.” (8)

Pius XII as an agent of change

In Pius XII’s detailed Instruction De Musica Sacra (https://archive.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/04/11/01-33-58_0.pdf) (1958) – which reads like a handbook for inserting lay participation in almost every nook and cranny of the liturgy – we see the beginnings of the so-called “community Mass” called for by the reformers.

Henceforth, the emphasis would increasingly be placed on communal responses by the whole congregation speaking aloud, which would make it difficult, if not impossible, for them to continue in their time-honored custom of individually-chosen silent prayers. It would, in other words, spell the end of the so-called “silent Mass” beloved of the people. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that for Beauduin and many in the Liturgical Movement this was a desirable outcome.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_Mus.jpg)Includes the ‘people’s parts’
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Few understood at the time that the novelty of including the laity in the rubrics of the Missal would create a paradigm shift in the liturgy that would require across-the-board new thinking in almost every aspect of it. Where this reform was heading was towards the progressivist concept of the liturgy enshrined in the Novus Ordo when “active participation” would become incuмbent on all the laity as their duty and responsibility.

It was at the behest of the reformers that Pius XII began a process that had the gravest possible implications for future changes in the liturgy. His innovative rubrics for the laity were incorporated into the 1962 Missal by Pope John XXIII, and were followed immediately by a never-ending succession of desacralizing reforms, each one decreasing the role of the priest celebrant while greatly promoting the “active participation” of the laity.

IIt was the beginning of a new, relativized situation in the Church where the accepted distinctions between clergy and laity in the liturgy no longer applied.

To be continued


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  • § 45 of the Constitution on the Liturgy states that “every diocese is to have a commission on the sacred liturgy under the direction of the bishop, for promoting the liturgical apostolate.”
  • Frederick McManus, The Rites of Holy Week: Ceremonies, Preparations, Music, Commentaries, New Jersey: St Anthony Guild Press, 1956, pp. viii-ix.
  • Ibid., p. ix.
  • The rubric in Chapter 17, § 2 of the General Rubrics directing those present (circuмstantes) to kneel except during the Gospel is sometimes misquoted as referring to the congregation. But as this rubric pertains to private Masses, i.e., without a congregation, the reference is to the server(s) at the altar.
  • No mention of “active participation” by the congregation was made in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which had been drawn up under the direction of Pius X; and no change was made to Canon 1256, which stipulated that the Church’s public worship is a function of its legitimately appointed ministers. Nor was any change made to Canon 818, which prohibited the addition of any liturgical arrangements not covered by the rubrics of the Missal.
  • A. Fortescue, Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described, London: Burns Oates and Washbourne, 1920, p. 78, Footnote 2.
  • Pius X, Vehementer nos, 1906, § 8.
  • Short Critical Study of the New Order of Mass, commonly known as the “Ottaviani Intervention,” written by a group of theologians and presented to Pope Paul VI by Cardinal Ottaviani (Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith) and Cardinal Bacci in 1969.

Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 24, 2020, 10:23:56 AM
Quote
In Pius XII’s detailed Instruction De Musica Sacra (https://archive.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/04/11/01-33-58_0.pdf) (1958) – which reads like a handbook for inserting lay participation in almost every nook and cranny of the liturgy – we see the beginnings of the so-called “community Mass” called for by the reformers.

Henceforth, the emphasis would increasingly be placed on communal responses by the whole congregation speaking aloud, which would make it difficult, if not impossible, for them to continue in their time-honored custom of individually-chosen silent prayers. It would, in other words, spell the end of the so-called “silent Mass” beloved of the people. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that for Beauduin and many in the Liturgical Movement this was a desirable outcome.

Few understood at the time that the novelty of including the laity in the rubrics of the Missal would create a paradigm shift in the liturgy that would require across-the-board new thinking in almost every aspect of it. Where this reform was heading was towards the progressivist concept of the liturgy enshrined in the Novus Ordo when “active participation” would become incuмbent on all the laity as their duty and responsibility.
At my SSPX Chapel, it is 1962 all over again and everyone has been instructed to scream out responses, even at a Low Mass. Being that the chapel is now predominately populated by ignorant Novus Ordo refugees from "pandemic" closed churches and churches where they have to wear a mask, they know nothing else and lead the way. Soon we will not need the altar servers to speak, for the congregation will scream out all the responses. 
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: SimpleMan on November 24, 2020, 10:42:10 AM
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This decision was certainly problematic in expressing as a rule of law something that had previously been considered illegitimate. The rubrics of the Missal were, by their very nature, laws requiring obedience from those who were responsible for performing the Church’s liturgy. They were never intended for the laity. Fr. Adrian Fortescue pointed out in 1920 that “lay people in the body of the church … enjoy a natural liberty,” and that the liturgical rubrics apply only to “those who assist more officially, the server, clergy, others in choir, and so on.” (6)[/font][/size]
This, dear Father Fortescue, this.

Quite aside from any changes in the liturgical prayers themselves, one thing that I find immensely agreeable about the TLM, is that the faithful in the pew are free to do, or not do, as they wish, the only limits being the reserved piety that they should have in any case.

The Novus Ordo is like following the lead of a caller at a square dance --- "allemand left and do-si-do, swing your partner to and fro" --- do this, and now you do this, and then you do that...   more like a Michael Buble ballad than the holy sacrifice of divine worship!

Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: SeanJohnson on November 24, 2020, 10:52:34 AM
At my SSPX Chapel, it is 1962 all over again and everyone has been instructed to scream out responses, even at a Low Mass. Being that the chapel is now predominately populated by ignorant Novus Ordo refugees from "pandemic" closed churches and churches where they have to wear a mask, they know nothing else and lead the way. Soon we will not need the altar servers to speak, for the congregation will scream out all the responses.
You are being prepped for the hybrid Mass which is being released piecemeal.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 24, 2020, 11:21:35 AM
...everyone has been instructed....

Who is doing the instructing?
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: MMagdala on November 24, 2020, 12:36:55 PM
At my SSPX Chapel, it is 1962 all over again and everyone has been instructed to scream out responses, even at a Low Mass. Being that the chapel is now predominately populated by ignorant Novus Ordo refugees from "pandemic" closed churches and churches where they have to wear a mask, they know nothing else and lead the way. Soon we will not need the altar servers to speak, for the congregation will scream out all the responses.
This is the responsibility of the priest.  He should lead, not "they" (us).  The reason that a trad church I attend is not suffering from this, despite being similarly "overrun" by clueless N.O. refugees, is that the priest makes clear who is in charge -- not laity, as in the N.O., but clergy.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 24, 2020, 12:56:48 PM
Who is doing the instructing?
The instructing is coming from the French prior and his French first assistant. Is the dialogue mass the SSPX standard in France or is the prior just inventing his own mass? I am told they use the dialogue mass in St. Mary's Kansas for the community, that they first introduced it (forced it ) on the K-12 students.

For those that did not know, the Dialogue mass was never accepted by English speaking countries, like the USA. It is a novelty, invented in the 1920's. Foreign priests are expected to respect the customs of the countries to which they are assigned, but being as we are living in the post Vatican II priestly anarchy, it should come as no surprise that these French SSPX are inventing their own solution to the Church revolution. It is 1965 all over again.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 24, 2020, 01:04:08 PM
This is the responsibility of the priest.  He should lead, not "they" (us).  The reason that a trad church I attend is not suffering from this, despite being similarly "overrun" by clueless N.O. refugees, is that the priest makes clear who is in charge -- not laity, as in the N.O., but clergy.
The priest is the leader of the revolution! The prior is using the ignorant Novus Ordo to push his agenda of "active participation" (= respond like a parrot), encouraging them on. 
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 24, 2020, 01:23:51 PM
The instructing is coming from the French prior and his French first assistant. Is the dialogue mass the SSPX standard in France or is the prior just inventing his own mass? I am told they use the dialogue mass in St. Mary's Kansas for the community, that they first introduced it (forced it ) on the K-12 students.

For those that did not know, the Dialogue mass was never accepted by English speaking countries, like the USA. It is a novelty, invented in the 1920's. Foreign priests are expected to respect the customs of the countries to which they are assigned, but being as we are living in the post Vatican II priestly anarchy, it should come as no surprise that these French SSPX are inventing their own solution to the Church revolution. It is 1965 all over again.

Then maybe speak up and say something.  Maybe these French priests are not aware of the local customs and, as such, are not even aware themselves that they are doing something against the custom of the (foreign to them) country.

You may want to do the same thing with the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees." 

Or maybe instructing the ignorant, one of the spiritual works of mercy, isn't applicable to French priests and/or Novus Ordo refugees?
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Miseremini on November 24, 2020, 01:39:46 PM
I am told they use the dialogue mass in St. Mary's Kansas for the community, that they first introduced it (forced it ) on the K-12 students.
Same thing happened in Canada.

For those that did not know, the Dialogue mass was never accepted by English speaking countries, like the USA. or Canada. Foreign priests are expected to respect the customs of the countries to which they are assigned, But a large part of the problem is that people born after Vat .II won't listen to parents or grandparents when they try to teach devotions and customs within the church building itself.  The only customs they will follow are the one's they were taught at home; but anything at church or school they just go along with the priest
My comments in red.
Talking to the young priests is useless.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 24, 2020, 03:22:07 PM
Then maybe speak up and say something.  Maybe these French priests are not aware of the local customs and, as such, are not even aware themselves that they are doing something against the custom of the (foreign to them) country. (they have been here for years and know the customs, they think the customs are mistaken, that Americans do not know what they are doing)

You may want to do the same thing with the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."  (Time will take care of it, IF the new arrival Novus ordos are worthy of learning tradition. I believe these mass "active participation" changes are a punishment from God upon the SSPXers there, because they are indifferent to the changes themselves. All the serious Trad old timers are gone, so the scattered few serious ones left are all alone. This is like the changing of the days of the week after the French revolution, in time it will die. There is a reason why the customs of Americans is different than the French, and things always return to their nature. In France less than 4% of Catholics go to mass, they are no country to emulate, but these French priests do not see that. They are blind guides.)  

Or maybe instructing the ignorant, one of the spiritual works of mercy, isn't applicable to French priests and/or Novus Ordo refugees? ( not if they do not want to hear it, because "they know better".)
My responses in red.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 24, 2020, 03:49:22 PM
The French priests described have been here for years and know the customs, they just think the customs are mistaken and  that Americans do not know what they are doing. Of course there is a reason why the customs of Americans is different than the French. In France less than 4% of Catholics go to mass, they are no country to emulate, but these French priests do not see that, nor do they want to see because "they know better”. This is 1965 all over again, “active participation” will save the Church. Never mind that it does not work in France, it will work this time.


Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

 P.S. – mass attendance in the USA is 6 times higher than France. Putting that figure into better perspective: If you were selling your car and you received advice from two people who had the identical car, one who sold his for $7000 and another who sold it for $42,000, who would you seek to emulate? These French priests want to emulate the person that sold it for $7000

Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Matthew on November 24, 2020, 08:10:23 PM
P.S. – mass attendance in the USA is 6 times higher than France. Putting that figure into better perspective: If you were selling your car and you received advice from two people who had the identical car, one who sold his for $7000 and another who sold it for $42,000, who would you seek to emulate? These French priests want to emulate the person that sold it for $7000


The French do have a superiority complex, and that includes their race. They are extremely racist, and I've heard this from friends who saw it first-hand. I guess that makes it second-hand for me. But I completely trust the Trads who reported these things, so I consider it a fact.

Good analogy. Whatever the French are doing, we should avoid by all means! Who wants 4% Mass attendance? They've lost it.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 25, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
The French priests described have been here for years and know the customs, they just think the customs are mistaken...

So not only does this appear to be a problem of the priests, but one that has been around for years, and is only now more apparent because of the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."

Looks like your chapel needs American priests.  Aren't there any?  If not, why not?
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 25, 2020, 09:34:46 AM
The French do have a superiority complex, and that includes their race. They are extremely racist, and I've heard this from friends who saw it first-hand. I guess that makes it second-hand for me. But I completely trust the Trads who reported these things, so I consider it a fact.

Good analogy. Whatever the French are doing, we should avoid by all means! Who wants 4% Mass attendance? They've lost it.

As the eldest daughter of the Church, so goes France, so goes the Church.  And as the Church's eldest daughter, France has clearly been the target of spiritual attack for at least as long as the U.S. has been a country. Can you imagine what the U.S. would be like today if at some point it outlawed the Catholic Church, as well as kicked out and/or killed the vast majority of its religious?  In that regard alone, I'll give France my support rather than turn my back on it in disgust. 

As for France being "extremely racist" I'm not even sure what that means.  "Racist" towards whom?  North African Mohammedans? Jews? Catholics? (BTW, Catholicism is not a race). I've spent time in France, and found that even towards Americans the French are warm and welcoming. This is especially true once one leaves the larger cities and travels throughout the countryside.     

Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 25, 2020, 09:41:09 AM
At my SSPX chapel the sermons we receive are insipid. There is never a sermon about how the Catholic faith is lived in our times. No how to instructions, their solution to the crisis of the faith we are living in, is just bible explanations,  catechism, and forced aloud "active participation" in the mass.

For those priests with ears that hear and eyes that see, the sheet below which I received at an SSPX retreat in 1997 at Ridgefield, CT, can serve as the template for their sermons for the rest of their lives as priest. Explain what these quotes mean, how they apply today and you have done the job God has given you.  Here is just one example, and THE sin that takes almost all sinners to hell:

"Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned". (St. Remigius of Rheims)

How does that apply today today? -  Men that watch pornography, movies with impurity of the flesh, going to a beach where women are in bikinis. Women dressing in immodest clothes that send men to hell. Women kissing, fondling and fornicating before marriage. False annulments = living in adultery. Adultery, divorced and re-married going to communion.........

A priest in his lifetime will not complete the use of this one sheet and will save innumerable souls (his purpose in life). Yet most priest will not venture to go there, because "they are afraid of scaring people away", and so they will continue with their insipid sermons about non-offensive subjects like the bible and catechism, and "active participation"  with no how to apply them to life.



THE TEACHINGS OF THE FATHERS, DOCTORS AND SAINTS OF THE CHURCH UPON THE FINAL DESTINY OF MOST PEOPLE.

Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost for ever. (St. John Neuman)

It is certain that few are saved. (St. Augustine)

The majority of men shall not see God. (St. Julian the Martyr)

The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love almighty God. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved. (St. Philip Neri)

Among adults there are few saved because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

Death bed conversions/repentance-there are hardly any: Out of 100,000 sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely ONE will be saved. (St. Jerome)
----------------------------------------------------------------

The MAJORITY OF CATHOLICS GO TO HELL:

The greater number of Christians today are damned. The destiny of those dying on one day is that very few  -  not as many as ten  -   went straight to Heaven; many remained in Purgatory; and THOSE CAST INTO HELL WERE NUMEROUS AS SNOWFLAKES in mid-winter. (Bl. Anna Maria Taigi)

There are many who arrive at the faith, but few who are led to the heavenly kingdom. Behold how many are gathered here for today's Feast-Day; we fill the church from wall to wall. Yet who knows how FEW they are who shall be numbered in that chosen company of the elect? (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

The Ark, which in the midst of the Flood was the symbol of the Church, was wide below and narrow above, .... It was wide where the animals were, narrow where men lived; for the Holy Church is indeed wide in number of those who are carnal minded, narrow in the number of those who are spiritual.
( Pope St. Gregory the Great)

Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to heaven? Alas, my children we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter. (St. John Vianney)
--------------------------------------------

MOST PRIESTS GO TO HELL:

I do not speak rashly, but how I feel and think. I do not think that many priests are saved, but that those who perish are more numerous. ( St. John Chrysostom)

St. John Chrysostom, sometime Patriarch of Constantinople, has something to say, and to such a personage your author relinquishes the floor:

I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein.

Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles)


Many religious go to Hell because they do not keep their vows. (St. Vincent Ferrer)
--------------------------------------------------------

CATHOLICS NOT ASPIRING AND NOT LIVING AS SAINTS WILL GO TO HELL:

They who are enlightened to walk in the way of perfection, and through lukewarmness wish to tread the ordinary paths, shall be abandoned. (Bl. Angela of Foligno)

They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

St. Teresa.... had she not risen from the state of lukewarmness in which she lived, she would in the end have lost the grace of God and been damned. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

How many inhabitants of this city may perhaps be saved? What I am about to say is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with it's thousands of inhabitants, not 100 people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! ( St. John Chrysostom - the city was Antioch and its inhabitants were known to be in pursuit of comfort and the good things of things life.)

A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day of the death of St. Bernard their also died 79,999 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved. So out of 80,000 dead, 79,997 went to Hell! )

In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

Yes indeed, many will be damned; few will be saved. (St. Benedict Joseph Labro)

If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

He who goes to Hell, goes of his own accord. Everyone who is damned, is damned because he wills his own damnation. (St. Alphonsus Liguori)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

THOSE WHO HAVE HEARD NOTHING ABOUT THE FAITH CAN ALSO GO TO HELL:

When such unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without the faith, but not because of their sin of unbelief. (St. Thomas Aquinas)

Everyone that is of truth hears my voice. (St. John 18:37)

It may be true that there are, in the remotest parts of the world, some people who have not yet seen the light of the Savior. Certainly, God's manifold and ineffable goodness has always provided, and still provides, for all mankind in such a way that not one of the reprobates can find an excuse as though he had been refused the light of truth. ( St. Prosper of Aquitaine)

No one is lost without knowing it, and no one is deceived without wanting to be. (St. Teresa of Avila)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE IS NO SALVATION:

No matter how praiseworthy his actions might seem, he who is separated from the Catholic Church will never enjoy eternal life (Pope Gregory XVI)

O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jews who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. O holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)


Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 25, 2020, 09:44:58 AM
A priest in his lifetime will not complete the use of this one sheet and will save innumerable souls (his purpose in life). Yet most priest will not venture to go there, because "they are afraid of scaring people away", and so they will continue with their insipid sermons about non-offensive subjects like the bible and catechism, and "active participation"  with no how to apply them to life.
St. John Chrysostom, sometime Patriarch of Constantinople, has something to say, and to such a personage your author relinquishes the floor:

I do not speak rashly, but as I feel and think., I do not think that many priests are saved but that those that perish are far more numerous. The reason is that the office requires a great soul. For there are many things to make a priest swerve from rectitude, and he requires great vigilance on every side. Do you not perceive how many qualities a bishop must have that he may be apt to teach; patient towards the wicked, firm and faithful in teaching the Word? How many difficulties herein.

Moreover the loss of others is imputed to him. I need say no more. If but one dies without baptism, does it not entirely endanger his salvation? For the loss of one soul is so great an evil as no man can understand. If the salvation of one soul is of such importance that, for its sake, the Son of God became man and suffered so much, think of the penalty the loss of one soul will entail. (Third Homily, Acts of the Apostles) 
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 25, 2020, 09:55:30 AM
As the eldest daughter of the Church, so goes France, so goes the Church.  And as the Church's eldest daughter, France has clearly been the target of spiritual attack for at least as long as the U.S. has been a country. Can you imagine what the U.S. would be like today if at some point it outlawed the Catholic Church, as well as kicked out and/or killed the vast majority of its religious?  In that regard alone, I'll give France my support rather than turn my back on it in disgust.  

As for France being "extremely racist" I'm not even sure what that means.  "Racist" towards whom?  North African Mohammedans? Jews? Catholics? (BTW, Catholicism is not a race). I've spent time in France, and found that even towards Americans the French are warm and welcoming. This is especially true once one leaves the larger cities and travels throughout the countryside.  
That is side tracking of the thread. Your comment is irrelevant to the OP. Fr. Chazal is a French priest, this is not about French priests and French and France being "evil". The fact remains that the Dialogue mass was never accepted by English speaking countries, like the USA. It is a novelty, invented in the 1920's. Foreign priests are expected to respect the customs of the countries to which they are assigned. Moreover, the fact that less than 4% of French go to mass, shows that their "system" is not one for the USA to emulate.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 25, 2020, 10:05:32 AM
So not only does this appear to be a problem of the priests, but one that has been around for years, and is only now more apparent because of the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."

Looks like your chapel needs American priests.  Aren't there any?  If not, why not?
The problem is not that they are French, I remind everyone that Fr. Chazal, Fr. Morel and many other good priests are French. The problem is that these particular French priests do not respect the customs of the country and want to change them to what they think is better or what is done in France (I do not know what is done in France, I don't have to know anything about what is done in France, I only need to know the customs of my country, the USA). 
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: SeanJohnson on November 25, 2020, 11:44:32 AM
The problem is not that they are French, I remind everyone that Fr. Chazal, Fr. Morel and many other good priests are French. The problem is that these particular French priests do not respect the customs of the country and want to change them to what they think is better or what is done in France (I do not know what is done in France, I don't have to know anything about what is done in France, I only need to know the customs of my country, the USA).
Fr. LeRoux (Rector, St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary) would be a Frenchman who fits that description:
Once he replaced Bishop Williamson, he began importing French pre-conciliar liturgical movement practices (eg., standing during Agnus Dei, Sanctus, repeating the Domine non sum dignus with the priest, etc.).
Then, as the old adage says, “The way YOU learned it is the right way,” once these priest were ordained (2009+), they started changing and incorporating these practices into their own chapels (overturning a 40 year custom at my own chapel, and 97% of the faithful just going along with it).
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 25, 2020, 03:40:40 PM
Fr. LeRoux (Rector, St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary) would be a Frenchman who fits that description:
Once he replaced Bishop Williamson, he began importing French pre-conciliar liturgical movement practices (eg., standing during Agnus Dei, Sanctus, repeating the Domine non sum dignus with the priest, etc.).
Then, as the old adage says, “The way YOU learned it is the right way,”
If "the way I learned was the right way", I would still be chasing bikini clad girls on the beach, partying with all my money, instead of  getting married and sacrificing my life to bring up 6 children in the truth of the faith. If these French had eyes to see, they would see the error of their ways and learn to respect the customs of this country and realize that they are wrong, and that their French customs belong to France (where by the way, it has resulted in over 96% of the laity becoming exiles from the mass).

The customs of this country are the result of 300+ years of masses by thousands of clergy and millions of worshippers all from every country in Europe (Spain, Ireland, England, Italy, Poland, France, Germany....) The French customs are from France only. Even the customs of the French Canadians is not the same as the French.

Imagine if Bp. Williamson was the rector of a French seminary and he attempted to change the French customs to what the English practice!
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 26, 2020, 11:03:15 AM
That is side tracking of the thread. Your comment is irrelevant to the OP.


The problem is not that they are French..., [t]he problem is that these particular French priests do not respect the customs of the country and want to change them to what they think is better or what is done in France (I do not know what is done in France, I don't have to know anything about what is done in France, I only need to know the customs of my country, the USA).

To the contrary, your comments blaming French priests and, more importantly, "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." is not only side-tracking, but is scapegoating. Nor was I the one who begun blaming France for the introduction of your dialog Masses.

You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?  My assumption would be (similar to many Novus Ordo parishes in the U.S.) because you don't have enough American priests to fill vacancies and/or meet the needs of your chapel.  In that regard, do you not see the irony in picking on France (with its alleged 4% Mass attendance) when your very own country can not produce enough of its own priests and therefore has to rely on French priests!?

:facepalm:

As I stated earlier, in connection with your situation, the problem you address has obviously been around since prior to the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees...." invading your sacred space, and yet, it does not appear you did anything to rectify the situation prior.  Which brings me to this point:
This is the responsibility of the priest.  He should lead, not "they" (us).  The reason that a trad church I attend is not suffering from this, despite being similarly "overrun" by clueless N.O. refugees, is that the priest makes clear who is in charge -- not laity, as in the N.O., but clergy.
 

So which is it?  On the one hand Last Tradhican is complaining that the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." are being instructed by, and listening to, the priest, and on the other hand MMagdala asserts that the priest is in charge, which includes reigning in the "...clueless N.O. refugees...."  

Seems to be a lot of scapegoating going on around here.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 26, 2020, 11:25:58 AM

To the contrary, your comments blaming French priests and, more importantly, "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." is not only side-tracking, but is scapegoating. Nor was I the one who begun blaming France for the introduction of your dialog Masses.

You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?  My assumption would be (similar to many Novus Ordo parishes in the U.S.) because you don't have enough American priests to fill vacancies and/or meet the needs of your chapel.  In that regard, do you not see the irony in picking on France (with its alleged 4% Mass attendance) when your very own country can not produce enough of its own priests and therefore has to rely on French priests!?

:facepalm:

As I stated earlier, in connection with your situation, the problem you address has obviously been around since prior to the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees...." invading your sacred space, and yet, it does not appear you did anything to rectify the situation prior.  Which brings me to this point:

So which is it?  On the one hand Last Tradhican is complaining that the "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees..." are being instructed by, and listening to, the priest, and on the other hand MMagdala asserts that the priest is in charge, which includes reigning in the "...clueless N.O. refugees...."  

Seems to be a lot of scapegoating going on around here.
I'm sorry but your comments make no sense whatsoever. Maybe you have a language problem?
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: MMagdala on November 26, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
The French do have a superiority complex, and that includes their race. They are extremely racist, and I've heard this from friends who saw it first-hand. I guess that makes it second-hand for me. But I completely trust the Trads who reported these things, so I consider it a fact.

Good analogy. Whatever the French are doing, we should avoid by all means! Who wants 4% Mass attendance? They've lost it.
The major trad apostolates include many internationals, because they're all international orders in terms of reach.  In some orders, those European priests who by personality or background will be able to adapt better to American culture are given the choice or assignment to work here in the States.  Those French priests who are here, of those I have met, far prefer the U.S. to France as a place to minister -- for reasons other posters have named.  Certain other priests prefer the restrictions in France or the anti-trad social/religious climate in their own different European homeland to the crass commercialism, bureaucracy, and various undesirable aspects of American culture.  Really depends on the individual priest, his capacity, and what he despises less-- to put it in the negative. The French trad priests that I know are hardly doing things the modern French way in this country.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 26, 2020, 11:59:03 AM
I'm sorry but your comments make no sense whatsoever. Maybe you have a language problem?

Really?

What part of --You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?--did you fail to understand?
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 26, 2020, 12:33:14 PM
You never did answer my question: Why do you have foreign priests running your chapel in the U.S. of A.?--did you fail to understand?
That's a good question to ask the Superior General or the District Superior, not me. Your question can start a whole other thread. That is why I didn't answer you:

- Why do they have foreign priests running chapels in the USA? 
- Why have the last two USA District Superiors before Fr. Fullerton been foreigners? 
- Why was the English speaking former rector of the American seminary (Bp. Williamson) that does not speak Spanish, sent to be the rector of the seminary in Argentina, and replaced in the USA by a French rector (Fr. LeRoux) that hardly spoke English. 
- At my chapel we have 6 American priests under the two French priests. There are more American priests than there are places to send them, so it is not because their is a shortage of priests in the USA.


Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 26, 2020, 12:44:28 PM
That's a good question to ask the Superior General or the District Superior, not me. That is why I didn't answer you.  

Then instead of whining about your dialog Masses here, why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom?  Would seem a lot more logical than scapegoating "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."

Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 26, 2020, 01:09:09 PM
Then instead of whining about your dialog Masses here, why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom?  Would seem a lot more logical than scapegoating "...ignorant Novus Ordo refugees."
Your "scapegoating ignorant Novus Ordo's"  is a strawman. We do not have a dialogue mass at my chapel except for the children's mass. There's no point in responding to your incoherence except this last answer:


Quote
why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom
What do you think this thread was for, to bring this to your attention? 
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 26, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
Your "scapegoating ignorant Novus Ordo's"  is a strawman. We do not have a dialogue mass at my chapel except for the children's mass. There's no point in responding to your incoherence except this last answer:

You contradict yourself.

At my SSPX Chapel, it is 1962 all over again and everyone has been instructed [by the priests] to scream out responses, even at a Low Mass. Being that the chapel is now predominately populated by ignorant Novus Ordo refugees from "pandemic" closed churches and churches where they have to wear a mask, they know nothing else and lead the way. Soon we will not need the altar servers to speak, for the congregation will scream out all the responses.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 26, 2020, 01:22:11 PM
You contradict yourself.
It is a contradiction only to you because you do not know what a Dialogue Mass is. Nor is your reading comprehension cohesive.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Bonaventure on November 26, 2020, 02:08:00 PM
It is a contradiction only to you because you do not know what a Dialogue Mass is. Nor is your reading comprehension cohesive.

Oh, for crying out loud. You knew what I meant.  Or are you daft?  Or just intentionally playing stupid?

Fine.  Replace the phrase "dialogue Mass" with "instructed to scream out responses," which is what you've been whining about since post #2 in this thread, and my point still stands:

Instead of whining here about foreign priests who are instructing parishioners to scream out responses, why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom?  

Why is this so hard for you to answer?

P.S. I'm beginning to understand why your priests don't listen to you.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 26, 2020, 02:24:26 PM
Oh, for crying out loud. You knew what I meant.  Or are you daft?  Or just intentionally playing stupid?

Fine.  Replace the phrase "dialogue Mass" with "instructed to scream out responses," which is what you've been whining about since post #2 in this thread, and my point still stands:

Instead of whining here about foreign priests who are instructing parishioners to scream out responses, why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom?  

Why is this so hard for you to answer?

P.S. I'm beginning to understand why your priests don't listen to you.
What is hard is for you to understand anything. I answered your question before but you do not understand:
Quote
Quote
why are you not bringing it to the attention of the Superior General and/or the District Superior that your French priests are not respecting local custom

What do you think this thread was for, to bring this to your attention? 
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 26, 2020, 08:57:19 PM
From another related thread someone ( see https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/loud-'active-participation-how-they-emptied-the-churches-of-men/msg723367/?topicseen#msg723367 (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/loud-'active-participation-how-they-emptied-the-churches-of-men/msg723367/?topicseen#msg723367) ( someone  asked a question that pertains to this thread. In yellow is the question and my response follows:

Quote
Speaking the responses is part of the Eastern liturgies and has been for centuries. Are you saying it's bad? That it's not about honoring God?

Regarding aloud active participation see the OP of my thread and my answers to others:  https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/laity-vocal-reponses-are-a-novelty/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/laity-vocal-reponses-are-a-novelty/)


The bottom line is that we follow the customs of our countries. The USA has  a Catholic mass history that goes back 300+ years involving customs from England, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Poland, France..... I live in the USA and I know my customs as I am sure a Coptic Catholic in Egypt knows his customs. What is done in an Eastern Liturgy is no consequence to me, just as what is done in the USA is of no consequence to a Coptic Catholic in Egypt.

Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century. Learn your own customs and do not fall for the "inventors" of a better way. The customs of a country reflect the character of its people, and being that the USA is a melting pot of many Catholic countries, I have to think that their customs are the most universal.  

Aloud active participation is not a custom of the USA.

Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 06, 2020, 11:22:29 AM
from: https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f192_Dialogue_99.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f192_Dialogue_99.htm)

Dialogue Mass - XCIX
The Devil in the Rubrics
Dr. Carol Byrne, Great Britain

As the history of the Liturgical Movement has shown, the reformers from Benedictine monk Dom Lambert Beauduin (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f075_Dialogue_3.htm) to Vatican II went to great lengths to make the faithful believe that the clergy are not the only members of the Church with a right to perform the liturgy. According to their “new theology,” responsibility for enacting the Church’s worship is entrusted to all the People of God by virtue of their common Baptism. And that is fundamentally why “active participation” of all the laity became their watchword.

The revolution from above

Pius XII greatly aided this new direction by officially endorsing lay “active participation” as part of what he called a “liturgical apostolate” (Mediator Dei § 109) ‒ a direction replicated and developed by Paul VI in the Constitution on the Liturgy. (1)

This consideration will help us to realize how revolutionary was Pius XII’s policy of enacting legislation to enable all the members of the congregation to take a direct and active part in the Church’s rites. Tucked away in his new Ordo of Holy Week (1956) were rubrical instructions that specifically required their “active participation” in the ceremonies.



(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_McM.jpg)Fr. Frederick McManus performing
a Television Age Mass in 1969
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Fr. Frederick McManus (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f099_Dialogue_20.htm), a major figure in the reform, made the following statement as soon as the new Holy Week Ordo was issued:

“The rubrics of the Ordo refer constantly to the responses to be made by the members of the congregation and to their activity in the carrying out of the holy liturgy. This is of course a notable departure from the rubrical norms of the Roman Missal”. [Emphasis added] (2)

He went on to explain that the “active participation” of the congregation is “made a matter of rubrical law and incorporated into the very text of the new liturgical book.” (3)

But in the Roman Rite before the Liturgical Movement, there had never been any official rubrics assigned by the Church for the laity. The Missal of Pope Pius V (1570) contained rubrics for the priest and his ministers to perform the sacred ceremonies, but none for the people in the pews. (4) And this position was enshrined in the 1917 Code of Canon Law. (5)

As a canon lawyer, Fr. McManus would have realized the contradictory nature of Pius XII’s innovation and its full significance for the Liturgical Movement’s goals. The primary characteristic of this breakthrough was the profound challenge it posed to the foundations of the ordained priesthood, which set the clergy apart from the laity, and gave them the exclusive right to perform the Church’s official liturgy.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_60s.jpg)A priest facing the people who are now participating actively in a 1969 Mass
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The new rubrical law was based on the premise that lay people were entitled to a role as “actors” in the liturgy, with an officially recognized right to active involvement in the external rites alongside the clergy. It was a reversal of Canon 1256 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which reiterated the traditional position that the Church’s public worship is a function of its legitimately appointed clergy. The wall separating the ordained from the non-ordained was now breached.

The introduction of rubrical laws into the Missal to legitimize the responses of the congregation and “their activity in the carrying out of the holy liturgy” was, as Fr. McManus observed, an unprecedented step. No Pope, least of all Pius X, had ever done anything like it before. Whereas previous editions of the Missal gave instructions only to the server, deacon or choir to give certain responses to the priest, the new rubrics included the whole congregation in this function.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_For.jpg)Fr. Fortescue: Liturgical rubrics apply to those who assist officially the Mass, not the laity
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This decision was certainly problematic in expressing as a rule of law something that had previously been considered illegitimate. The rubrics of the Missal were, by their very nature, laws requiring obedience from those who were responsible for performing the Church’s liturgy. They were never intended for the laity. Fr. Adrian Fortescue pointed out in 1920 that “lay people in the body of the church … enjoy a natural liberty,” and that the liturgical rubrics apply only to “those who assist more officially, the server, clergy, others in choir, and so on.” (6)

Such a remarkable departure from tradition surely calls for a consideration of its legal and constitutional basis. We need to be clear whether it was a just law promoting the Common Good, and in what way it can be said to reflect the constitution of the Church. This had been defined by Pope Pius X as “inherently (“vi et natura sua”) an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of persons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful.” (7)

In two minds

Pius XII stated in Mediator Dei § 93 that the action of the liturgy was the privilege only of the priest, and that the faithful participate by uniting their hearts with his intentions. Thus he upheld the immemorial practice of the Roman Rite in which the priest performed the visible, external rite, while the faithful present joined their prayers mentally with the actions of the priest, and offered spiritual sacrifices.

But in §105 of the same docuмent, he rendered this teaching incoherent by conferring on the members of the congregation the right to become directly involved in the liturgical action “in an external way.”

The licensing of disorder

The problem, therefore, with the new legislation was that it was constructed on ambivalence. The role of the priest in the Mass was no longer “fixed” but relativized by being shared on an active level with the people. It introduced the spirit of democracy into the Church years before Vatican II. One cannot interfere with the basic order observed for centuries in the Church without inviting harmful collateral consequences.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_Equ.jpg)The spirit of revolutionary equality &
fraternity entered the Church
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There is something unreal and unacceptable from a Catholic point of view about this development on account of the insuperable ontological and doctrinal problems it poses. For priests and faithful of the Roman Rite, there was the danger that it would distort their perception of the hierarchical nature of the Church and engender confusion in their minds about the distinction between ordination and simple baptism.

And that is precisely the position in which the post-conciliar Church finds itself with the whole People of God jointly celebrating the Mass and Sacraments by reason of their “common priesthood.” Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy (§ 31), developing the principle started by Pius XII, stipulated that when the liturgical books were revised, they “must carefully attend to the provision of rubrics also for the people’s parts.”

One does not need to be an expert in liturgiology to see the likely effect this would have on a Catholic understanding of the Mass and the priesthood. It would undermine the very notion of exclusivity at the heart of the ordained priesthood: it is, after all, the Mass that makes the priest and gives him his identity.

When the General Instruction of the Novus Ordo was produced in 1969, Cardinal Ottaviani noted its “obsessive references to the communal character of the Mass,” adding that “the role attributed to the faithful is autonomous, absolute – and hence completely false,” and that “the people themselves appear to be invested with autonomous priestly powers.” (8)

Pius XII as an agent of change

In Pius XII’s detailed Instruction De Musica Sacra (https://archive.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/04/11/01-33-58_0.pdf) (1958) – which reads like a handbook for inserting lay participation in almost every nook and cranny of the liturgy – we see the beginnings of the so-called “community Mass” called for by the reformers.

Henceforth, the emphasis would increasingly be placed on communal responses by the whole congregation speaking aloud, which would make it difficult, if not impossible, for them to continue in their time-honored custom of individually-chosen silent prayers. It would, in other words, spell the end of the so-called “silent Mass” beloved of the people. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that for Beauduin and many in the Liturgical Movement this was a desirable outcome.


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(https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/HTimages_b-f/F192_Mus.jpg)Includes the ‘people’s parts’
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Few understood at the time that the novelty of including the laity in the rubrics of the Missal would create a paradigm shift in the liturgy that would require across-the-board new thinking in almost every aspect of it. Where this reform was heading was towards the progressivist concept of the liturgy enshrined in the Novus Ordo when “active participation” would become incuмbent on all the laity as their duty and responsibility.

It was at the behest of the reformers that Pius XII began a process that had the gravest possible implications for future changes in the liturgy. His innovative rubrics for the laity were incorporated into the 1962 Missal by Pope John XXIII, and were followed immediately by a never-ending succession of desacralizing reforms, each one decreasing the role of the priest celebrant while greatly promoting the “active participation” of the laity.

IIt was the beginning of a new, relativized situation in the Church where the accepted distinctions between clergy and laity in the liturgy no longer applied.

To be continued


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  • § 45 of the Constitution on the Liturgy states that “every diocese is to have a commission on the sacred liturgy under the direction of the bishop, for promoting the liturgical apostolate.”
  • Frederick McManus, The Rites of Holy Week: Ceremonies, Preparations, Music, Commentaries, New Jersey: St Anthony Guild Press, 1956, pp. viii-ix.
  • Ibid., p. ix.
  • The rubric in Chapter 17, § 2 of the General Rubrics directing those present (circuмstantes) to kneel except during the Gospel is sometimes misquoted as referring to the congregation. But as this rubric pertains to private Masses, i.e., without a congregation, the reference is to the server(s) at the altar.
  • No mention of “active participation” by the congregation was made in the 1917 Code of Canon Law, which had been drawn up under the direction of Pius X; and no change was made to Canon 1256, which stipulated that the Church’s public worship is a function of its legitimately appointed ministers. Nor was any change made to Canon 818, which prohibited the addition of any liturgical arrangements not covered by the rubrics of the Missal.
  • A. Fortescue, Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described, London: Burns Oates and Washbourne, 1920, p. 78, Footnote 2.
  • Pius X, Vehementer nos, 1906, § 8.
  • Short Critical Study of the New Order of Mass, commonly known as the “Ottaviani Intervention,” written by a group of theologians and presented to Pope Paul VI by Cardinal Ottaviani (Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith) and Cardinal Bacci in 1969.
The article is telling traditional Catholics that the laity responding aloud during the mass (whether just singing the Kyrie or the Credo, or just responding "et cuм spiritu tuo") is a novelty of the 20th century, and not a custom of the Roman Rite.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Matthew on December 06, 2020, 01:51:03 PM
I'm not a big fan of the Dialogue Mass, but I also keep things in perspective.

It's not the Novus Ordo. It's not single-handedly going to destroy your Faith.

If the Revolution had frozen in the 1950's, we would all be going to our local parishes and many of us would be participating in Dialogue Masses on Sundays. If we stayed home because we didn't prefer them, etc., we would be in mortal sin. It's that simple.

You can claim that Dialogue Masses, like the 62 Missal, were signposts on the way to the Novus Ordo. Maybe they are. But they are also harmless in themselves; it's hard to disagree with that.

A man can walk out his door or load a gun while committing ZERO faults, much less sins. However, if he adds JUST ONE ITEM to that -- aiming at and shooting a man -- he goes from completely guiltless to committing a heinous Mortal Sin.

Some Trads would argue that leaving your house and/or loading a gun are just as bad as the murder, "because they led to it. He couldn't have committed the murder without leaving his house, and loading that gun! Check, and mate!"

Yeah... but he also could have EASILY done those two things and remained blameless, if he hadn't actually gone a step further and shot a man.

I guess this is an example of the classic "Slippery Slope" fallacy?
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: SeanJohnson on December 06, 2020, 03:51:45 PM
Today at Mass, in the pew behind me, a family was quietly making some of the responses...and in English.

I had to fight to keep from yelling at them to shut up.

Ultra-cringe.

I had to remind myself they were probably/hopefully new (i.e., they were behind me, and I couldn't see them), and hopefully in time it will fade/stop.

Or, maybe the whole parish will start joining them (they obviously don't mind blabbering Masses at the Academy chapel, so...).
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Last Tradhican on December 06, 2020, 05:11:41 PM
If the Revolution had frozen in the 1950's, we would all be going to our local parishes and many of us would be participating in Dialogue Masses on Sundays. If we stayed home because we didn't prefer them, etc., we would be in mortal sin. It's that simple.

You can claim that Dialogue Masses, like the 62 Missal, were signposts on the way to the Novus Ordo. Maybe they are. But they are also harmless in themselves; it's hard to disagree with that.
We can also say that had the Novus Ordo been done in Latin facing the altar, that there would not be one traditionalist today. But it does not work that way. It works the way it played out.  Once you open the Pandora's box of laity aloud participation, it will always end up in the same place. One either follows tradition or they get aboard for the ride on the slippery slope.

"Those that do not heed the lessons of history, are doomed to repeat it."
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Miseremini on December 06, 2020, 06:56:10 PM
Bad things usually/almost always, start with things that are "harmless in themselves" as Matthew pointed out, but isn't that always the way the devil presents what he wants us to do?
If it's a slippery slope....DON'T STEP ON THE SLOPE!
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: andy on December 06, 2020, 10:51:30 PM
If it's a slippery slope....DON'T STEP ON THE SLOPE!
I guess he mean a slippery slope, but in different direction.
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on December 08, 2020, 12:50:19 PM
That's a good question to ask the Superior General or the District Superior, not me. Your question can start a whole other thread. That is why I didn't answer you:

- Why do they have foreign priests running chapels in the USA?
- Why have the last two USA District Superiors before Fr. Fullerton been foreigners?
- Why was the English speaking former rector of the American seminary (Bp. Williamson) that does not speak Spanish, sent to be the rector of the seminary in Argentina, and replaced in the USA by a French rector (Fr. LeRoux) that hardly spoke English.
- At my chapel we have 6 American priests under the two French priests. There are more American priests than there are places to send them, so it is not because their is a shortage of priests in the USA.
7 priests in one place?? 
Title: Re: Laity Vocal Reponses are a Novelty
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on December 08, 2020, 12:51:15 PM
What you have to worry about is the Wealthy novus ordo refugees.