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Author Topic: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church  (Read 4696 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2020, 09:09:48 AM »
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  • Lefebvre explains what he means when he refers to the Council (or conciliar church) as “schismatic:”

    I am not saying that in words one cannot use one phrase and then oppose it with another one, pull it out of context and, thus, make me say things that are not in my mind.

    I have sometimes dared to use strong phrases, for example, that the Council was more or less schismatic. In a certain sense it is true because there is a certain break with Tradition. So in the sense that the Council is in breach with Tradition, it can be said, to some extent, that it is schismatic. But when I said that, it was not to say that the Council is really, profoundly schismatic, definitively. You have to understand everything I say. The Council is schismatic insofar as it breaks with the past, that is true. But that does not mean that it is schismatic in the precise, theological sense of the word.

    So when you take terms like that, you can say, “You see ! If the Council is schismatic, the pope who signed the Council is schismatic, and all the bishops who signed the Council are schismatics, so that we no longer have the right to be with them.” This is false reasoning. It’s madness, it does not make sense!"

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/archbishop-lefebvre-explains-himself/
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #61 on: October 24, 2020, 09:29:55 AM »
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  • Lefebvre explains what he means when he refers to the Council (or conciliar church) as “schismatic:”

    I am not saying that in words one cannot use one phrase and then oppose it with another one, pull it out of context and, thus, make me say things that are not in my mind.

    I have sometimes dared to use strong phrases, for example, that the Council was more or less schismatic. In a certain sense it is true because there is a certain break with Tradition. So in the sense that the Council is in breach with Tradition, it can be said, to some extent, that it is schismatic. But when I said that, it was not to say that the Council is really, profoundly schismatic, definitively. You have to understand everything I say. The Council is schismatic insofar as it breaks with the past, that is true. But that does not mean that it is schismatic in the precise, theological sense of the word.

    So when you take terms like that, you can say, “You see ! If the Council is schismatic, the pope who signed the Council is schismatic, and all the bishops who signed the Council are schismatics, so that we no longer have the right to be with them.” This is false reasoning. It’s madness, it does not make sense!"

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/archbishop-lefebvre-explains-himself/
    So +ABL says the Conciliar Church is not a schismatic church, as he sums up in the part in red. And of course, if it's not the same as the Catholic Church and it's not schismatic, then it's not a church at all. 


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #62 on: October 24, 2020, 09:35:43 AM »
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  • So +ABL says the Conciliar Church is not a schismatic church, as he sums up in the part in red. And of course, if it's not the same as the Catholic Church and it's not schismatic, then it's not a church at all.
    “In a sense;” “Insofar.”

    Tissier is saying the same thing when he acknowledges they are not entirely distinct.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #63 on: October 24, 2020, 09:44:45 AM »
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  • “In a sense;” “Insofar.”

    Tissier is saying the same thing when he acknowledges they are not entirely distinct.
    If they are not entirely distinct, they aren't distinct at all. The Church isn't a Frankenstein monster; it can't have heretical appendages hanging out of it. Either the Conciliar Church is a schismatic church entirely separate from the Catholic Church, or it is not a church at all but just a term describing group within the Church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #64 on: October 24, 2020, 10:02:16 AM »
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  • If they are not entirely distinct, they aren't distinct at all. The Church isn't a Frankenstein monster; it can't have heretical appendages hanging out of it. Either the Conciliar Church is a schismatic church entirely separate from the Catholic Church, or it is not a church at all but just a term describing group within the Church.
    Mental note:
    Forlorn knows more than Lefebvre, Tissier, and Avrille.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #65 on: October 24, 2020, 10:06:10 AM »
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  • If they are not entirely distinct, they aren't distinct at all. The Church isn't a Frankenstein monster; it can't have heretical appendages hanging out of it. Either the Conciliar Church is a schismatic church entirely separate from the Catholic Church, or it is not a church at all but just a term describing group within the Church.

    This is basic ontology.  Even if you had a mad scientist somehow genetically blend a dog and a cat and make a dogcat, that dogcat is substantially a new entity.  It may have some accidents of cat and some accidents of dog, but it is essentially something new.

    No, the only way to view two churches as one thing is to view the one thing from two different formal aspects, i.e. to make a formal-material type of distinction, where it remains materially the Catholic Church but formally NOT the Catholic Church.

    So, as you point out, it's either 1) the Catholic Church or 2) the Conciliar Church or 3) a brand new Frankenchurch, as you put it ... just like the dogcat is not both a dog and a cat at the same time, but a new thing called dogcat ... which has some accidents of dog and some accidents of cat.  So too Frankenchurch would be a new thing altogether, neither the Catholic Church NOR the Conciliar Church, but something entirely new.

    This ontology is deal with the first few weeks of any introduction to Thomistic-Aristotelian philosophy.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #66 on: October 24, 2020, 10:10:27 AM »
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  • Mental note:
    Forlorn knows more than Lefebvre, Tissier, and Avrille.
    Except Lefebvre explicitly said it isn't schismatic in any theological sense of the word. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #67 on: October 24, 2020, 10:12:56 AM »
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  • Mental note:
    Forlorn knows more than Lefebvre, Tissier, and Avrille.

    You dogmatic R&R completely misrepresent the thinking of +Lefebvre, who himself was by no means dogmatic R&R, and in fact laid out the problem, namely that this cannot happen to the Church, since it is guided by the Holy Spirit.  +Lefebvre concedes this MAJOR of the sedevacantist posiiton, and discusses the various possible solutions, concluding that sedevacantism is very possible.  It was merely a matter of prudence for him, deferring to the final judgment of the Church.  If anything, his thinking was most consistent with the position later articulated by Fr. Chazal.  So you distort the thinking of +Lefebvre, as many dogmatic R&R do, to make it seem as if he supported your position, but he most certainly did not.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #68 on: October 24, 2020, 10:18:58 AM »
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  • Except Lefebvre explicitly said it isn't schismatic in any theological sense of the word.

    The record is quite clear.  +Lefebvre resisted the sedevacantist conclusion only out of a sense of deferring to the Church as the final authority on the question ... and for reasons of prudence.

    Fr. Ringrose posted an audio of a talk given by the Archbishop where he agreed with the sedevacantist Major that it is not possible for the Church to undergo such a degree of decay due to the protection of the Holy Spirit.  Then he speculated about how the Crisis could have happened.  He talked about the possibility that Paul VI had been replaced by a double and that he was medicated or controlled somehow, but dismissed those.  He did not raise the possibility that he was being blackmailed due to his sodomy, but that IMO doesn't seem entirely unlikely.  That would be a solution to the problem of how the Church could do this, since in that case his acts would not have been free and would have been null and void.  But in the end he concludes that sedevacantism is possible and even likely.  He simply did not pull the trigger, preferring to wait for the final judgment of the Church, out of humility and prudence.

    He was by no means a rabid dogmatic R&R, like SeanJohnson and Meg here ... so their attempts to pretend that +Lefebvre is in their corner are shameless lies.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #69 on: October 24, 2020, 10:19:40 AM »
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  • Except Lefebvre explicitly said it isn't schismatic in any theological sense of the word.
    Also I'd like to note the hypocrisy of the "lol u think you know more than [insert bishops here]?"

    Disagreeing with some of the theories of a bishop is not "thinking you know more". Every single Trad, by virtue of being a Trad, disagrees with thousands of NO bishops who are far better educated than almost everyone on this forum. Every layman in the Resistance disagrees with the remaining SSPX bishops. Should we accuse all Trads or lay-members of the Resistance of "thinking they know more" for disagreeing with people better educated than they are? I could probably name a large number of Trad bishops you disagree with on a number of subjects, Sean, along with all the countless NO bishops you obviously disagree with. Do I call you arrogant for that? No.

    So return the favour and stick to arguing facts instead of appealing to authority, just because I disagree with Bp. Tissier(not Abp. Lefebvre) on a certain subject. You yourself disagree with him on a number of subjects, hence why you're in the Resistance.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #70 on: October 24, 2020, 10:24:31 AM »
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  • The record is quite clear.  +Lefebvre resisted the sedevacantist conclusion only out of a sense of deferring to the Church as the final authority on the question ... and for reasons of prudence.

    Fr. Ringrose posted an audio of a talk given by the Archbishop where he agreed with the sedevacantist Major that it is not possible for the Church to undergo such a degree of decay due to the protection of the Holy Spirit.  Then he speculated about how the Crisis could have happened.  He talked about the possibility that Paul VI had been replaced by a double and that he was medicated or controlled somehow, but dismissed those.  He did not raise the possibility that he was being blackmailed due to his sodomy, but that IMO doesn't seem entirely unlikely.  That would be a solution to the problem of how the Church could do this, since in that case his acts would not have been free and would have been null and void.  But in the end he concludes that sedevacantism is possible and even likely.  He simply did not pull the trigger, preferring to wait for the final judgment of the Church, out of humility and prudence.

    He was by no means a rabid dogmatic R&R, like SeanJohnson and Meg here ... so their attempts to pretend that +Lefebvre is in their corner are shameless lies.

    You seem to believe that you have been given special insight into the mind of Archbishop Lefebvre. Do you believe that God gave you specific info? If not, then how do you know +ABL better than EVERYONE else?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #71 on: October 24, 2020, 10:31:17 AM »
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  • Except Lefebvre explicitly said it isn't schismatic in any theological sense of the word.
    Yes.  And??
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #72 on: October 24, 2020, 10:33:58 AM »
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  • This is basic ontology.  Even if you had a mad scientist somehow genetically blend a dog and a cat and make a dogcat, that dogcat is substantially a new entity.  It may have some accidents of cat and some accidents of dog, but it is essentially something new.

    No, the only way to view two churches as one thing is to view the one thing from two different formal aspects, i.e. to make a formal-material type of distinction, where it remains materially the Catholic Church but formally NOT the Catholic Church.

    So, as you point out, it's either 1) the Catholic Church or 2) the Conciliar Church or 3) a brand new Frankenchurch, as you put it ... just like the dogcat is not both a dog and a cat at the same time, but a new thing called dogcat ... which has some accidents of dog and some accidents of cat.  So too Frankenchurch would be a new thing altogether, neither the Catholic Church NOR the Conciliar Church, but something entirely new.

    This ontology is deal with the first few weeks of any introduction to Thomistic-Aristotelian philosophy.
    Refuted by Tissier’s description of tge four marks of tge conciliar church in the article cited.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #73 on: October 24, 2020, 10:35:21 AM »
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  • You dogmatic R&R completely misrepresent the thinking of +Lefebvre, who himself was by no means dogmatic R&R, and in fact laid out the problem, namely that this cannot happen to the Church, since it is guided by the Holy Spirit.  +Lefebvre concedes this MAJOR of the sedevacantist posiiton, and discusses the various possible solutions, concluding that sedevacantism is very possible.  It was merely a matter of prudence for him, deferring to the final judgment of the Church.  If anything, his thinking was most consistent with the position later articulated by Fr. Chazal.  So you distort the thinking of +Lefebvre, as many dogmatic R&R do, to make it seem as if he supported your position, but he most certainly did not.
    Directly quoting Lefebvre explaining what he means is a strange way of misrepresenting him!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Ladislaus Position on the non-Catholic Conciliar Church
    « Reply #74 on: October 24, 2020, 10:38:30 AM »
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  • The record is quite clear.  +Lefebvre resisted the sedevacantist conclusion only out of a sense of deferring to the Church as the final authority on the question ... and for reasons of prudence.

    Fr. Ringrose posted an audio of a talk given by the Archbishop where he agreed with the sedevacantist Major that it is not possible for the Church to undergo such a degree of decay due to the protection of the Holy Spirit.  Then he speculated about how the Crisis could have happened.  He talked about the possibility that Paul VI had been replaced by a double and that he was medicated or controlled somehow, but dismissed those.  He did not raise the possibility that he was being blackmailed due to his sodomy, but that IMO doesn't seem entirely unlikely.  That would be a solution to the problem of how the Church could do this, since in that case his acts would not have been free and would have been null and void.  But in the end he concludes that sedevacantism is possible and even likely.  He simply did not pull the trigger, preferring to wait for the final judgment of the Church, out of humility and prudence.

    He was by no means a rabid dogmatic R&R, like SeanJohnson and Meg here ... so their attempts to pretend that +Lefebvre is in their corner are shameless lies.
    Yes, yes, Lefebvre believed exactly what Ladislaus believed!
    He was on the verge of being sedevacantist!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."