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Author Topic: Kramer's Kontradiction  (Read 2136 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Kramer's Kontradiction
« on: October 07, 2023, 12:13:10 PM »
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  • Father Paul Kramer and many Bennyvacantists claim that Jorge Bergoglio is a heretic.  Father Kramer first made his assertion that Bergoglio is not a legitimate pope on his Facebook page on November 28, 2013 based on Bergoglio's teaching that the Jєωιѕн covenant was never revoked.

    Quote
    "“Pope” Francis in Evangelii Gaudium n. 247: “We hold the Jєωιѕн people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked”. This text is an explicit profession of heresy, directly opposed to the solemn dogmatic definition of Pope Eugenius III and the Ecuмenical Council of Florence, and the doctrine taught by the supreme magisterium of Pope Benedict XIV in Ex Quo Primum, set forth repeatedly and explicitly citing the definition of Florence, to wit, that the Mosaic covenant has been “revoked” and “abrogated”.

    But for him, Wojtyla and Ratzinger were legitimate popes.

    Except that it was Wojtyla who pioneered this particular heresy and Bergoglio was merely taking his lead.

    Wojtyla, November 17, 1980 referred to the Jews as ...
    Quote
    the people of the old covenant never revoked by God.

    Ratzinger, October 27, 2017 ...
    Quote
    both theses – that Israel is not superseded by the church, and that the Covenant has never been terminated - are basically correct

    So why is Bergoglio a heretic for teaching that the Jєωιѕн covenant was never revoked, while Wojtyla and Ratzinger are not for teaching the same thing, which Wojtyla in fact first pioneered?

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #1 on: October 07, 2023, 12:23:16 PM »
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  • Why does Vigano assert the same thing?

    https://www.fromrome.info/2020/05/27/archbishop-vigano-omits-faith-in-jesus-christ-and-the-church-in-letter-to-rabbi/


    "He has conceded that unbelieving Jєωs are Israel and that their Messiah is yet to come."


    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #2 on: October 07, 2023, 12:40:08 PM »
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  • Ah, no, Miser.

    Bungler's article is dated May 27, 2020, but only 2 weeks later, Vigano affirmed this:

    "Whosoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; For unless a person shall have kept this faith whole and inviolate, without doubt he shall eternally perish.”
    https://catholicism.org/archbishop-carlo-maria-vigano-on-the-necessity-of-the-church-for-salvation.html

    So either Vigano is schizophrenic, or you and Bungler are misiinterpreting him.

    The simple fact is that Vigano says exactly the opposite of what Bungler and Miser attribute to him: He's not saying their Messiah is yet to come, but that He is Jesus, and they have not yet recognized him:

    "The Messiah which Israel is awaiting is the Rex pacificus, the Princeps pacis, the Pater futuri saeculi: not a tyrant without morals who dominates the world by making men submit like slaves. This is rather the Antichrist."  He's telling them their Messiah is Jesus Christ.

    Shout out to Meg: At the link provided, he AGAIN condemns Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ...you know, because he's so sympathetic to it.  :facepalm:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #3 on: October 07, 2023, 12:44:18 PM »
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  • Bungler's article is dated May 27, 2020, but only 2 weeks later, Vigano affirmed this:

    "Whosoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; For unless a person shall have kept this faith whole and inviolate, without doubt he shall eternally perish.”
    https://catholicism.org/archbishop-carlo-maria-vigano-on-the-necessity-of-the-church-for-salvation.html

    Yeah, everyone who wishes to be saved must hold the Catholic Faith (except for the Jєωs). That's seems to be Vigano's belief. He probably thinks that the Jews are our elder brothers in the Faith (which is so very Vatican ll). 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #4 on: October 07, 2023, 12:45:11 PM »
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  • Yeah, everyone who wishes to be saved must hold the Catholic Faith (except for the Jews).

    That makes you a heretic.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #5 on: October 07, 2023, 12:46:05 PM »
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  • Miser and Meg need to both be banned for their continuing slander of +Vigano.  Even when you're proven wrong, you persist in your malicious slander.

    First of all, cite +Vigano and not some commentator.  You didn't even have the decency to cite +Vigano himself.  He said absolutely nothing along the lines of what the commentator claims.

    Here are his exact words, in the original Italian and the English translation:
    Quote
    Il Messia che Israele attende è Rex pacificus, Princeps pacis, Pater futuri saeculi: non un tiranno senza morale che domina il mondo sottomettendo gli uomini come schiavi. Questo è piuttosto l’Anticristo.

    The Messiah which Israel is awaiting is the Rex pacificus, the Princeps pacis, the Pater futuri saeculi: not a tyrant without morals who dominates the world by making men submit like slaves. This is rather the Antichrist.

    Where does he say here that the covenant has never been revoked and that the Jews can be saved?  What he's saying is this.  "So you Jews are awaiting the Messiah.  Isn't he characterized by the Old Testament as the Rex Pacificus, etc.? But this notion of a domineering tyrant is rather in line with the Antichrist."  He's simply saying that the Jews are (subjectively) waiting for should be the Prince of Peace and not have the characteristics of Antichrist.  In fact, if you read it carefully, he's subtly but very clearly implying that the conception of the Messiah that Jews are awaiting is in fact the Antichrist.  He could have been more direct about it, but that's his diplomatic speak.

    But nowhere does he say that the Jews are OBJECTIVELY awaiting the Messiah (and that the Messiah has yet to come), much less that the covenant remains in force and remains salvific for the Jews.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #6 on: October 07, 2023, 01:18:51 PM »
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  • Miser and Meg need to both be banned for their continuing slander of +Vigano.  Even when you're proven wrong, you persist in your malicious slander.

    First of all, cite +Vigano and not some commentator.  You didn't even have the decency to cite +Vigano himself.  He said absolutely nothing along the lines of what the commentator claims.

    Here are his exact words, in the original Italian and the English translation:
    Where does he say here that the covenant has never been revoked and that the Jєωs can be saved?  What he's saying is this.  "So you Jєωs are awaiting the Messiah.  Isn't he characterized by the Old Testament as the Rex Pacificus, etc.? But this notion of a domineering tyrant is rather in line with the Antichrist."  He's simply saying that the Jєωs are (subjectively) waiting for should be the Prince of Peace and not have the characteristics of Antichrist.  In fact, if you read it carefully, he's subtly but very clearly implying that the conception of the Messiah that Jєωs are awaiting is in fact the Antichrist.  He could have been more direct about it, but that's his diplomatic speak.

    But nowhere does he say that the Jєωs are OBJECTIVELY awaiting the Messiah (and that the Messiah has yet to come), much less that the covenant remains in force and remains salvific for the Jєωs.

    I'll post the whole article so people can read it and decide for themselves.

    I don't usually agree with this guy, but in this case he was right.  Especially in his last paragraph.  Our Lord Jesus Christ was no diplomat when it came to the Jews.

    One also has to wonder why Vigano calls Benedict the "Katechon" and still sees him as the "conservative" one who had to be gotten out of the way when Benedict held the position that the Jews are not waiting for their Messiah in vain as they still hold the Old Covenant.   ??





    ARCHBISHOP VIGANÒ OMITS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH IN LETTER TO RABBI
    MAY 27, 2020 EDITOR 8 COMMENTS
    by Br. Alexis Bugnolo
    In response to the Open Letter on the Covid-Crisis which Archbishop Viganò published with the names of 13 bishops and several Cardinals, and which was subsequently signed by some 40,000 faithful, a Jєωιѕн Rabbi in Germany, by the name of Ahrens, objected in an editorial for a German Catholic publication, discounting the statement as an appeal to conspiracy theories.
    In response, the Archbishop wrote a public letter to the Rabbi. In it he defends the truth of the problem with the Covid-19 response. And that is good. But in the process he betrays the Gospel and his Apostolic Mission, by writing:
    Quote
    Liquidare queste preoccupazioni – peraltro espresse anche da autorevoli personalità – come «teorie del complotto» non mi sembra un atteggiamento costruttivo: soprattutto se non si entra nel merito, confutando ciò che si ritiene non vero. Le chiedo quindi: in che cosa, in particolare, Lei non concorda con il testo dell’Appello? Cosa, dell’Appello, rappresenta per Lei uno «shock»?
    Mi creda: non avrei mai pensato che l’Appello potesse offenderLa; d’altra parte, per quale motivo un Rabbino dovrebbe sentirsi chiamato in causa, quando si parla di Nuovo Ordine Mondiale? Il Messia che Israele attende è Rex pacificus, Princeps pacis, Pater futuri saeculi: non un tiranno senza morale che domina il mondo sottomettendo gli uomini come schiavi. Questo è piuttosto l’Anticristo.

    Which in English is:
    Quote
    To dismiss these concerns — expressed, moreover, also by authorative personalities — as “conspiracy theories” does not seem to be a constructive attitude: above all if one does not address the merit of the issue, by confusing it with what one regards as true.  I ask you therefore: in what, in particular, do you disagree with the text of the Appeal? What in the Appeal represents for you a “shock”?
    Believe me: I would never have thought that the Appeal could be offensive to you; on the other hand, for what reason might a Rabbi feel called into the debate, when one is speaking of the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr?  The Messiah which Israel is awaiting is the Rex pacificus, the Princeps pacis, the Pater futuri saeculi: not a tyrant without morals who dominates the world by making men submit like slaves. This is rather the Antichrist.
    There the Archbishop leaves it. In the rest of the Letter he says nothing more of Jesus Christ or the Church. He has conceded that unbelieving Jews are Israel and that their Messiah is yet to come.
    Together such affirmations represent a least a decision to be silent about Jesus, and worse a tacit consent in a theory of Two Messiahs, one for Jews and one for Christians, which a godless heresy.
    Because while it is true that the Jews of old are Israel — named on account of their descent from Jacob whose  name God changed after he wrestled with an Angel — Saint Paul speaks of their conversion only in regard to faith in Jesus Christ. Such a nation is Israel.
    But Christ came, so that nation no longer is awaiting Him. They have either accepted Him or rejected him. There is no other Messiah to come.

    But for the people of Israel which awaits another, Christ Himself said those were the sons of the Devil, not of Abraham. Nor can anyone, without playing games with words, theology and doctrine, claim that the Jews today are still waiting the Messiah. If they do not believe in Jesus and reject Him, then they are not awaiting him in any sense or stretch of the imagination!
    Nay, rather, the real and true Israel is the Catholic Church and the Jews throughout the ages who have converted to the Faith. And Moses confirms this in Deuteronomy, where he says that those who reject the prophet to come after him, the Messiah, shall be cut off from the People of God by God Himself.
    What the Archbishop has done might seem to him fine diplomacy, but Our Lord did not commission the Apostles as diplomats — as anyone who reads the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles can see.





    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #7 on: October 07, 2023, 01:37:03 PM »
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  • Miser and Meg need to both be banned for their continuing slander of +Vigano. 

    :facepalm:

    He ain't pope yet. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #8 on: October 07, 2023, 02:14:53 PM »
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  • So.....getting back to Benny and JPII and the contradiction with Bennyvacantists regarding the Old Covenant.....

    Why do they get off the hook and not Frankie?

    CatholicKnight? Angelus?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #9 on: October 07, 2023, 02:18:52 PM »
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  • So.....getting back to Benny and JPII and the contradiction with Bennyvacantists regarding the Old Covenant.....

    Why do they get off the hook and not Frankie?

    CatholicKnight? Angelus?

    Yeah, that was the point of this thread, to address CatholicKnight, who's a huge fan of Father Kramer.  Angelus is a Bennyvacantist for different reasons, so it's not directly addressed to him.

    There are some individuals so obsessed with +Vigano that they try to derail every single thread with attacks against +Vigano (and sometimes by extension Trump).

    If they want to start their own thread about +Vigano, they are free to do so, but please show proper forum etiquette by not derailing someone else's thread on a different subject.

    Father Kramer first rejected the "pontificate" of Bergoglio in 2013 on the basis of his having taught that the Jєωιѕн covenant was never revoked.

    But Wojtyla first invented this heresy, and Ratzinger has also reiterated it.

    So why is Bergoglio a heretic for teaching this while Wojtyla and Ratzinger are not ... for teaching the same thing?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #10 on: October 07, 2023, 02:20:09 PM »
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  • :facepalm:

    He ain't pope yet.

    So?  It's still a slander to basically charge him with either being a Mason or being sympathetic to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ on flimsy evidence ... that's been thoroughly debunked.  So he'd have to be pope before he had a right not to be slandered and falsely accused?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #11 on: October 07, 2023, 02:24:14 PM »
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  • So?  It's still a slander to basically charge him with either being a Mason or being sympathetic to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ on flimsy evidence ... that's been thoroughly debunked.  So he'd have to be pope before he had a right not to be slandered and falsely accused?

    It wasn't thoroughly debunked at all. Thanks to miser and others. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #12 on: October 07, 2023, 02:40:35 PM »
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  • It wasn't thoroughly debunked at all. Thanks to miser and others.

    :facepalm:  Sure, because you say so.

    1) pre-Vatican II Tridentine Catholic Missal with the Italian "so let it be" as the Italian translation for "Amen" and a poster's testimony that a Traditional Italian priest used the same expression from the pulpit
    and
    2) examples of Christian art that used "Sol Invictus" imagery for Christ and the text from St. Clement of Alexandria who likened Our Lord to the Sun riding in His chariot

    are not "debunking" this slander at all ... just because you say so and pretend that evidence doesn't exist.  And mostly because you hate +Vigano now that he's come out as an "evil sedevacantist".

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #13 on: October 07, 2023, 02:43:23 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Sure, because you say so.

    1) pre-Vatican II Tridentine Catholic Missal with the Italian "so let it be" as the Italian translation for "Amen" and a poster's testimony that a Traditional Italian priest used the same expression from the pulpit
    and
    2) examples of Christian art that used "Sol Invictus" imagery for Christ and the text from St. Clement of Alexandria who likened Our Lord to the Sun riding in His chariot

    are not "debunking" this slander at all ... just because you say so and pretend that evidence doesn't exist.  And mostly because you hate +Vigano now that he's come out as an "evil sedevacantist".

    If you are correct about the above, then please name even one member of the Catholic clergy (trad) who has cited either of the above in any of his writings or verbal communications.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Deipara

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    Re: Kramer's Kontradiction
    « Reply #14 on: October 07, 2023, 02:59:11 PM »
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  • ARCHBISHOP VIGANÒ OMITS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH IN LETTER TO RABBI
    MAY 27, 2020 EDITOR 8 COMMENTS
    by Br. Alexis Bugnolo
    In response to the Open Letter on the Covid-Crisis which Archbishop Viganò published with the names of 13 bishops and several Cardinals, and which was subsequently signed by some 40,000 faithful, a Jєωιѕн Rabbi in Germany, by the name of Ahrens, objected in an editorial for a German Catholic publication, discounting the statement as an appeal to conspiracy theories.
    In response, the Archbishop wrote a public letter to the Rabbi. In it he defends the truth of the problem with the Covid-19 response. And that is good. But in the process he betrays the Gospel and his Apostolic Mission, by writing:
    Which in English is:
    There the Archbishop leaves it. In the rest of the Letter he says nothing more of Jesus Christ or the Church. He has conceded that unbelieving Jєωs are Israel and that their Messiah is yet to come.
    Together such affirmations represent a least a decision to be silent about Jesus, and worse a tacit consent in a theory of Two Messiahs, one for Jєωs and one for Christians, which a godless heresy.
    Because while it is true that the Jєωs of old are Israel — named on account of their descent from Jacob whose  name God changed after he wrestled with an Angel — Saint Paul speaks of their conversion only in regard to faith in Jesus Christ. Such a nation is Israel.
    But Christ came, so that nation no longer is awaiting Him. They have either accepted Him or rejected him. There is no other Messiah to come.

    But for the people of Israel which awaits another, Christ Himself said those were the sons of the Devil, not of Abraham. Nor can anyone, without playing games with words, theology and doctrine, claim that the Jєωs today are still waiting the Messiah. If they do not believe in Jesus and reject Him, then they are not awaiting him in any sense or stretch of the imagination!
    Nay, rather, the real and true Israel is the Catholic Church and the Jєωs throughout the ages who have converted to the Faith. And Moses confirms this in Deuteronomy, where he says that those who reject the prophet to come after him, the Messiah, shall be cut off from the People of God by God Himself.
    What the Archbishop has done might seem to him fine diplomacy, but Our Lord did not commission the Apostles as diplomats — as anyone who reads the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles can see.
    Bugnolo is a fool at best, deliberately misleading at worst 

    A reply to Bugnolo: https://novusordowatch.org/2018/09/no-true-pope-cannot-be-deposed/