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Author Topic: Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires  (Read 1114 times)

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Offline Marcelino

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Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires
« on: September 28, 2012, 09:22:04 PM »
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  • People often have desires for good things.  However, they can let their own desires blind them to The Truth.  

    It's so easy to see this, when it involves something clearly wrong, but it is more difficult when it involves, what seems to be, a righteous desire.

    Feeneyism seems like one such example of this.  A good desire to evangelize.  Unfortunately, it seems that his desire to win souls for God, became inordinate and warped his good sense.  

    I'm sure there are plenty of examples of this same sort of thing, throughout human history.  A father who wants so badly to support his wife and children, that he focuses on appealing to his customer's vices, in order to sell them and hence, make more money.  

    A wife who so desperately fears her children won't be well taken care of, decides to secretly engage in birth control or worse.

    All kinds of temptations like these in life and everybody seems to be giving in, but I don't think we should "follow the crowd."  








    Offline Marcelino

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    Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires
    « Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 12:48:59 AM »
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  • God is Truth.  We should defend the truth.  




    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires
    « Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 02:48:27 AM »
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  • We should follow Our Lord, instead of following the crowd.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires
    « Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 09:43:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Marcelino
    People often have desires for good things.  However, they can let their own desires blind them to The Truth.  

    It's so easy to see this, when it involves something clearly wrong, but it is more difficult when it involves, what seems to be, a righteous desire.

    Feeneyism seems like one such example of this.  A good desire to evangelize.  Unfortunately, it seems that his desire to win souls for God, became inordinate and warped his good sense.  

    I'm sure there are plenty of examples of this same sort of thing, throughout human history.  A father who wants so badly to support his wife and children, that he focuses on appealing to his customer's vices, in order to sell them and hence, make more money.  

    A wife who so desperately fears her children won't be well taken care of, decides to secretly engage in birth control or worse.

    All kinds of temptations like these in life and everybody seems to be giving in, but I don't think we should "follow the crowd."  


    Why start yet another EENS/BOD thread to say nothing as you have above here. This is a vanity thread. In ALL the other EENS/BOD threads you have not answered the simplest of questions. No one yet knows exactly what you are complaining about.  Go to one of the other threads and explain yourself, using Church teachings.

    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Marcelino
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Marcelino


    You seem to imply that you know you are taking a stand that is not accurate, but you're doing it, because it will protect the people from heresy.  O.k., even in that regard I don't think it is correct, because the god you portray is so alien to The Christian God.  Your portrayal of God is simply an unjust god, who is to be feared, maybe, but not loved or trusted.


    My posting consisted only of the teaching on baptism of desire from the  Catechism of Trent, and the teaching on the eternal fate of all non-Catholics by St. Alphonsus Ligouri (which like I stated, was what was taught by all the saints who discussed the subject since the time of Christ). So, by your stating that "the god you portray is so alien to The Christian God..an unjust god.", I must assume that you are not a traditional Catholic.



    Quote from: Marcelino

    I think the scandal you fear, is far less harmful, than the one you would create.  So, I hope they keep you "locked in your box."   :cowboy:


    I have to conclude then that you prefer the progressivist novel teachings, rather the the traditional teaching of the catechism of Trent and St. Alphonsus Ligouri?





    This is where you seem unreasonable to me.  You seem to want to quote some things, but then ignore others.  I think you have to take Christianity in its entirety and i think that is found within the roman catholic tradition (all of it, not just pieces/parts of it).  Moreover, I think it is found in the church 1000 years ago and still is found there today.  

    Liberalism is doomed;  Tradition will go on forever.  

    As to your "conclusions" about me, I can only conclude that they are insincere.  


    You are extremely incoherent to me, perhaps you should give some examples, quotes from the Church, of what you are talking about.

    THE POINT of my Dear Marcelino letter, was to show you that the new teachings of the 20th century were never taught by ANY saint, and actually totally opposed by them.

    What is your background, where did you learn the faith?
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

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    Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires
    « Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 09:45:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Dear Marcelino,

    You are a simple layman, you are simply following without questions what your priests taught you, and that is noble.

    However, for this subject of Baptism of desire (BOD), it is crucial for Catholics to understand it correctly, or they will cease to be a light to the salvation of non-Catholics. And indeed that is what has happened to all conciliar Catholics from the pope to the simplest laymen, they have lost their savour.

     "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men"(Mat 5:13)

    And here is a better example of what I am going to expound on here:

    Orestes Brownson 1874:
    "There can be no more fatal mistake than to soften, liberalize or latitudinize this terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation...  If we wish to convert Protestants and infidels we must preach in all its rigor the naked dogma.  Give them the smallest peg or what appears so, not to you, but to them;--- the smallest peg on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the Church by the sacrament of Penance, and all the arguments you can address to them to prove the necessity of being in the Church in order to be saved will have no more effect on them than rain on a duck's back."

    The "Baptism of Desire" (BOD) of the 20th Century, Is Not the BOD of All the Previous Centuries. It is a Novelty.

    The traditional theory of baptism of desire is as defined in the Catechism of Trent:

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Ordinarily They Are Not Baptized At Once, p. 179: “On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time.  The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.”

    And

    St. Alphonsus Ligouri, who believed this theory, taught that all others are lost. ( pardon the large amount of quotes, but, I wanted to show that it was not just one isolated statement):

    St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church. How many are born among the pagans, among the Jєωs, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.” (Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219)

    St. Alphonsus: “If you are ignorant of the truths of the faith, you are obliged to learn them. Every Christian is bound to learn the Creed, the Our Father, and the Hail Mary under pain of mortal sin. Many have no idea of the Most Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, mortal sin, Judgment, Paradise, Hell, or Eternity; and this deplorable ignorance damns them.” (Michael Malone, The Apostolic Digest, p. 159.)

    O ye atheists who do not believe in God, what fools you are! But if you do believe there is a God, you must also believe there is a true religion. And if not the Roman Catholic, which is it? Perhaps that of the pagans who admit many gods, thus they deny them all. Perhaps that of Mohammed, a religion invented by an impostor and framed for beasts rather than humans. Perhaps that of the Jєωs who had the true faith at one time but, because they rejected their redeemer, lost their faith, their country, their everything. Perhaps that of the heretics who, separating themselves from our Church, have confused all revealed dogmas in such a way that the belief of one heretic is contrary to that of his neighbor. O holy faith! Enlighten all those poor blind creatures who run to eternal perdition! (St. Alphonsus Liguori)

    St. Alphonsus: “We must believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church; hence, they who are out of our Church, or if they are separated from it, cannot be saved.” (Saint Alphonsus Marie De Liguori, Instructions On The Commandments And Sacraments, G. P. Warren Co., 1846. Trans. Fr. P. M’Auley, Dublin, p. 57.)

    St. Alphonsus: “How thankful we ought to be to Jesus Christ for the gift of faith! What would have become of us if we had been born in Asia, Africa, America, or in the midst of heretics and schismatics? He who does not believe is lost. This, then, was the first and greatest grace bestowed on us: our calling to the true faith. O Savior of the world, what would become of us if Thou hadst not enlightened us? We would have been like our fathers of old, who adored animals and blocks of stone and wood: and thus we would have all perished.” (Saint Alphonsus Maria De Liguori, Preparation for Death, unabridged version, p. 339.)

    In the great deluge in the days of Noah, all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water, but sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved. ( St. Alphonsus Liguori)

    Notice the striking separation, the "iron curtain", between the person who explicitly desires to be a Catholic, and all other non-Catholics! St. Alphonsus Ligouri was just teaching what he had learned from St. Thomas Aquinas, and indeed that was THE definition of baptism of desire taught in catechisms for 19 centuries.

    A Change In the 20th Century

    In the 20th century, there was a dangerous subtle change in the teaching of BOD. You will see it in Spirago- Clarke Catechism, and many others, the change is reflected in these comments by recent times bishops:

    “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

    “It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, ”

    The change is what is dangerous

    That new definition of baptism of desire that saves those THAT ARE outside of the Church, who have no absolutely no desire to be Catholics(!!!!!!), That is the problem. If I could convince the traditionalists on Cathinfo to understand that they been slow boiled (they don't even realize it) to accept a novelty, then I will have accomplished my purpose in defending EENS as it is written.

    Bottom Line

    If you want to believe/teach as the Catechism of Trent teaches that "should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness,”
    so be it, no big deal to me. That will not give non-Catholics "a peg on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the Church by the sacrament of Baptism and Penance".

    However, if any of you persist in teaching otherwise than St. Alphonsus Ligouri, know that you are in peril yourselves of incur the wrath of God for your fatal mistake of softening, liberalizing or latitudinizing this terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation.

     The reason why I write against the teaching that non-Catholics can be saved outside of the Church, is because it always ends in the hearer believing that they can be saved outside of the Church. I believe in EENS as it is written, therefore, I believe that teaching otherwise is sending people to hell, for the non-Catholic is oblivious to the fact that if they die outside of the Church, they will without a doubt go to eternal perdition.
    ----------------------------------
    P.S.

    So, what is worse to teach to non-Catholics? :

    (A) Teaching EENS as it is written and "Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

    (B) or teaching that - “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

    Neither has as yet been condemned by the Church, they have not been declared heresy. But which is more harmful for non-Catholics to hear?
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires
    « Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 01:25:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Marcelino
    ...
    All kinds of temptations like these in life and everybody seems to be giving in, but I don't think we should "follow the crowd."  








    Yes, Marcelino, that sounds like it.
    People do give in.
    We must be resolute and firm.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV

    Offline Sede Catholic

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    Justifying The Destruction of Truth To Fullfill Human Desires
    « Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 01:28:10 AM »
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  • I double-posted that post.
    I apologize to the forum.
    Francis is an Antipope. Pray that God will grant us a good Pope and save the Church.
    I abjure and retract my schismatic support of the evil CMRI.Thuc condemned the Thuc nonbishops
    "Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman Pontiff"-Pope Boniface VIII.
    If you think Francis is Pope,do you treat him like an Antipope?
    Pastor Aeternus, and the Council of Trent Sessions XXIII and XXIV