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Author Topic: John XXIII a True Pope?  (Read 5138 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2018, 11:00:39 AM »
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    The men who elected him had their own agenda, therefore it was a simoniacal election. 
    Ha ha, you sedes come up with new theories every 6 months.  It's like you have 1,000 reasons why the pope isn't the pope, none of which are conclusive, but you act like "quantity over quality" makes up for each argument's limitations.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #16 on: September 12, 2018, 11:09:33 AM »
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    During the conclave, the one who gets the most votes is presumed to be the winner. However he is approached and asked if he accepts. If he says 'yes' then he is the next Pope. If he says 'no' then they have to start all over again.

    White smoke ONLY exists if the candidate says "yes".  So SOMEONE said "yes" in 1958 then changed their mind.

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    I really doubt that if Cardinal Siri had been elected that all of a sudden they would be bending his arm behind his back forcing him to relinquish the office that they had just elected him to.
    Unless the modernists wanted a false pope, so they could do whatever they wanted and not worry about the special graces of the papacy kicking in and disrupting their plans.  The satanists/freemasons are well aware of grace and prayer and the spiritual battle we all fight in.  Bl Pius IX was thought to have been a "John XXIII" type whom the freemasons could use/control but he woke up and turned conservative.  Maybe the modernists didn't want to take that chance again, so they forced Siri to resign, (knowing he would still be the pope) and thus they could have a fake candidate?  There's at least some proof for this theory.
     
    As they say:  "Where there's (white) smoke, there's fire."
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #17 on: September 12, 2018, 11:36:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 12, 2018, 10:58:11 AM
    This leads us to the conclusion that 1) it's possible for a heretic to be elected pope, based on the rule changes,

    This makes it possible for heretics to elect a pope, but not necessarily for a heretic to be elected pope.  Or, if you're a sedeprivationist, sure the heretic can be elected pope, but he can't formally exercise the office until he formally rejoins the Church (i.e. converts from his heresy).  So, for instance, a mere layman can be elected pope, but he cannot exercise the office until he's actually ordained a priest and consecrated a bishop.  Although he could probably make appointments and do other things even at that time.  So that would be a situation where the principles of sedeprivationism apply.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #18 on: September 12, 2018, 11:45:40 AM »
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    • Another interesting scenario.  Let's say that the conclave elected a layman, and the layman accepted the election.

    But, then, let's say that, as time went on, this layman didn't want to be ordained and consecrated.  Would the electors have the right to repeal the election and designate another?  I argue that they would ... just like a non-consummated marriage can be annulled.  This would be the case where he's only a material pope but never becomes a formal pope, and as a purely-material pope, the material aspect, i.e. the designation, can be repealed or revoked.  Or, alternatively, the pope's refusal to be ordained could be understood as implicit refusal of the office.

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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #19 on: September 12, 2018, 02:51:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 12, 2018, 11:00:39 AM
    Ha ha, you sedes come up with new theories every 6 months.  It's like you have 1,000 reasons why the pope isn't the pope, none of which are conclusive, but you act like "quantity over quality" makes up for each argument's limitations.
    Don't take my word, nor my snippet here?  Take the time to read what the Church said about electing of popes.  
    http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0067/_P6.HTM


    BTW ... We "sedes" are Roman Catholics who take the position that the Chair is empty of a Catholic sitting there. 
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #20 on: September 12, 2018, 03:36:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 12, 2018, 11:09:33 AM
    White smoke ONLY exists if the candidate says "yes".  So SOMEONE said "yes" in 1958 then changed their mind.
    Unless the modernists wanted a false pope, so they could do whatever they wanted and not worry about the special graces of the papacy kicking in and disrupting their plans.  The satanists/freemasons are well aware of grace and prayer and the spiritual battle we all fight in.  Bl Pius IX was thought to have been a "John XXIII" type whom the freemasons could use/control but he woke up and turned conservative.  Maybe the modernists didn't want to take that chance again, so they forced Siri to resign, (knowing he would still be the pope) and thus they could have a fake candidate?  There's at least some proof for this theory.
     
    As they say:  "Where there's (white) smoke, there's fire."
    The mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance here is insane. You say you aren't a sedevacantist, yet you believe Cardinal Siri was forced to resign. Forced resignations are NOT valid under Church law. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #21 on: September 12, 2018, 04:45:17 PM »
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    • I just like to have fun with the Siri thesis.  The white smoke is the only evidence I have, but it is evidence.  If Siri were forced to resign, he'd still be pope, so sedevacantism doesn't enter the equation.

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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #22 on: September 12, 2018, 05:03:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 12, 2018, 04:45:17 PM
    I just like to have fun with the Siri thesis.  The white smoke is the only evidence I have, but it is evidence.  If Siri were forced to resign, he'd still be pope, so sedevacantism doesn't enter the equation.

    As far as I know, he died in 1989.
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 06:25:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on September 12, 2018, 05:03:13 PM
    As far as I know, he died in 1989.
    Yes.  I thought most tards...at least those that post online....knew that Siri was dead for decades now.

    ETA:  LOL.  Not "tards", trads.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 06:27:48 PM »
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    • Pax, if the Italian Cardinal Siri was duly elected and the story is true, his election was taken away that only proves the point that those doing the elected had an agenda proving a simoniacal election.

    Also if Siri was the True Pope the Chair would have been occupied much longer, and no need for the position of sedevacantism till 1989.  If only we knew!  
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 06:30:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on September 12, 2018, 06:27:48 PM
    Pax, if the Italian Cardinal Siri was duly elected and the story is true, his election was taken away that only proves the point that those doing the elected had an agenda proving a simoniacal election.

    Also if Siri was the True Pope the Chair would have been occupied much longer, and no need for the position of sedevacantism till 1989.  If only we knew!  
    Except there is no indication that Siri didn't go along with Vatican II.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it was just the opposite.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 06:53:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 12, 2018, 04:45:17 PM
    I just like to have fun with the Siri thesis.  The white smoke is the only evidence I have, but it is evidence.  If Siri were forced to resign, he'd still be pope, so sedevacantism doesn't enter the equation.

    Well, there's much more evidence than just the white smoke.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 06:58:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 12, 2018, 06:30:34 PM
    Except there is no indication that Siri didn't go along with Vatican II.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it was just the opposite.

    He did and he didn't.  He disliked Vatican II, but that's as far as he went.  This matters nothing, however, since there's no evidence that Siri was a heretic in 1958, and had he been elected, his Magisterium would have been under the protection of the Holy Spirit.  And a forced resignation would have been canonically invalid, thereby leaving him as the legal occupant of the See and barring subsequent elections until his death.

    After his death we have only B16 and Francis.  Now, B16 was consecrated bishop in the new rite, and Francis was both ordained and consecrated in the new rites.  In addition, both their elections could have been invalidated by collusion among the Cardinals (and that case is being strongly made for the case of Bergoglio as we speak).
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 06:59:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 12, 2018, 06:30:34 PM
    Except there is no indication that Siri didn't go along with Vatican II.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it was just the opposite.
    Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: John XXIII a True Pope?
    « Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 07:22:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on September 12, 2018, 06:59:12 PM
    Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    What doubt? He is a father of that robber council and didn't reject it.
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)
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