Author Topic: John XXII, beatific vision and the material papacy (Read 1633 times)

Laurentius · « **on:** February 16, 2010, 04:21:39 PM »

Doesn't the fact that John XXII denied the teaching that souls experienced the beatific vision before judgment day, prove the concept of a material papacy by the fact that he is included in the list of pontiffs ... John XXII did admittedly renounce his view near death, but since he was a heretic at the time of his election and during most of his pontificate, doesn't that prove that a heretic can be pope at least materially?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:17:31 PM »

The matter had not been clearly defined when he said what he did (in a series of sermons, I think), so he was not, nor could he be, an heretic.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:20:11 PM »

IOW, he was WRONG -- but not in an area where being wrong would involve heresy (at that time). Further, as you noted, he changed his mind on the matter.

Laurentius · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:29:32 PM »

Even if a matter has not been clearly defined ... it is still true or false and a part of our faith, thus if a person denies it when it is undefined it is still heresy, it just is material instead of formal heresy .... its no different then when a person in ignorance denies a defined truth today, the difference is the later can be held slightly more culpable because his error stems in part from slothfulness in investigating the matter.

For example st. Bernard of Clairvaux and Thomas Aquinas could be called material heretics because they denied the immaculate conception of our lady.

Do only formal heretics vacate the papacy, or do material heretics vacate it aswell?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2010, 05:36:42 PM »

Quote from: Laurentius

Even if a matter has not been clearly defined ... it is still true or false and a part of our faith, thus if a person denies it when it is undefined it is still heresy, it just is material instead of formal heresy ....

This is incorrect. Material heresy is like what you wrote here:

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its no different then when a person in ignorance denies a defined truth today, the difference is the later can be held slightly more culpable because his error stems in part from slothfulness in investigating the matter.

It is radically different, as you are here speaking of a situation where someone is simply unaware that something has been defined -- i.e., they are not aware that they MUST believe something. J22 was wrong about something, but he was NOT wrong about something where the correct idea had already been authoritatively taught.

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For example st. Bernard of Clairvaux and Thomas Aquinas could be called material heretics because they denied the immaculate conception of our lady.

No, they could not. The matter was not declared as de fide until they had been dead for hundreds of years.

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Do only formal heretics vacate the papacy, or do material heretics vacate it as well?

A man is not a heretic AT ALL unless his heresy is formal.