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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Cathedra on August 16, 2013, 05:06:34 AM

Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 16, 2013, 05:06:34 AM
Thousands of views of the thread where he uttered this and only a couple of people protested.

That's strange.

Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 16, 2013, 05:08:43 AM
Here are the exact quotes:

Quote from: Jehanne
I don't know what was going through his head and you don't, either!  Did he ask for the Koran to be handed to him or did the cleric simply give it to him?  What would you have done?  Throw it down on the ground??  And, how many people would have died as a result?  If it were me, I would have just kissed the damned thing and gone on with my agreed-to meeting.


Quote from: Mithrandylan
You must be joking!


Quote from: Jehanne
No, I'm not, not at all!


Quote from: Jehanne
His actions did not constitute apostasy.  In kissing the Koran, he was not paying reverence to it.  It was merely a political act to "preserve the peace."  Again, what would you have done???

I already told you. I would have held my breath and kissed it.  The alternative would have been to have had some confrontation with the Muslim cleric, which could have resulted in worldwide riots, death, and even, a war?  When you show-up at someone's house as an invited guest and tell your host that their "food tastes like dog poo", even if their food was crap???  Or, would you "hold your tongue" and just eat their food and act like you like it?!
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2013, 05:15:00 AM
I never saw that post, but if I had, I would have done as you,, started a new thread.

Jehanne, do you realize saints have been martyred and gone straight to their eternal reward for a whole lot less than refusing to kiss a Koran?

You, as a Catholic, are supposed to refuse to kiss the evil thing - if they kill you for that, well, as I said - saints have been martyred and gone straight to their eternal reward for a whole lot less.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 16, 2013, 05:18:52 AM
Quote from: Stubborn
I never saw that post, but if I had, I would have done as you,, started a new thread.


Yes, i suspected it was buried and many people just missed it so i wanted to check.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 16, 2013, 05:26:24 AM
Missed two more posts:

Quote from: Jehanne
I don't believe that such necessarily constitutes an act of heresy or apostasy.  I would probably be thinking, "Well, I suppose that I better do this, so this f**ker does not blow me up, slit my throat, or fly a plane into a building full of innocent people."


Quote from: Jehanne
Normally, I would not "kiss the Koran"; on the other hand, if I was held hostage by Islamic fanatics and told to "kiss the Koran or die," I probably would.  For me, such would be a political or humanitarian act only, and not a religious act.


Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2013, 06:06:32 AM
All St. Thomas More had to do to save his neck was sign a piece of paper.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Stubborn on August 16, 2013, 06:28:08 AM
To clarify, I am not suggesting martyrdom is a walk in the park since without extra special graces from God, no one would get martyred imo - but the point is that I don't think kissing satan's book is something that we would do, even just to get it over with - rather we should be living so as to always ready to avoid doing anything of the sort, regardless of the circumstances.


Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 16, 2013, 07:49:46 AM
Here's the thread in question and the first time he posted that: http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=26456&min=110&num=5
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Charlemagne on August 16, 2013, 08:26:54 AM
Quote from: Stubborn
Jehanne, do you realize saints have been martyred and gone straight to their eternal reward for a whole lot less than refusing to kiss a Koran?


In the Conciliar Church, kissing the blasphemous Koran will apparently help you earn "sainthood."
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: parentsfortruth on August 16, 2013, 08:27:31 AM
This isn't the first time I've raised my eyebrows reading his posts.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 16, 2013, 08:50:19 AM
Kissing the Koran is a sign of reverence - consider that JPII is the man who kissed the Koran but continued to use the Bent Crucifix for his choice of crucifixes.  He, in fact, showed MORE respect to the Koran than the crucifix.

Back to the point of kissing the Koran, that's showing reverence, respect, love and appreciation.  I think the proper way to handle it is to refuse to even touch the thing if it's handed to you as a "foreign religion's object of devotion".  

A best practice would be to tell the practitioners that you care about the status of their eternal soul and you want them to renounce their falsehoods.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Charlemagne on August 16, 2013, 10:32:10 AM
Agreed, Cap'n, except I would add one thing: The way to avoid having to make such a decision is to not even place yourself in the position in the first place. JPII basically bowed down to Satan when he kissed that disgusting book. "Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?"
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Frances on August 16, 2013, 10:58:31 AM
Shame on jehanne.  He should change his Avatar to jihad.  Better listen to Fr. Pfeiffer's sermon from San Antonio on the 13th.  
For whom are you willing to die?
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: TCat on August 16, 2013, 12:16:25 PM
There have been more days than I can remember where I ardently prayed for the most torturous martyrdom, to tell of my love of the truth which the son of God has deigned to show me. To die a martyr is the greatest grace of all! I wish and still pray for this grace everyday.

Jehannes comment is nothing other than cowardice. He should have trusted in God to set things right following his TEST and accept the brief torments in exchange for the everlasting paradise.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 16, 2013, 12:24:31 PM
Quote from: Charlemagne
Agreed, Cap'n, except I would add one thing: The way to avoid having to make such a decision is to not even place yourself in the position in the first place. JPII basically bowed down to Satan when he kissed that disgusting book. "Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?"


Good advice!  The first sin committed was placing yourself in a position like that.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: bowler on August 16, 2013, 12:54:22 PM

Quote from: Jehanne
I don't know what was going through his head and you don't, either!  Did he ask for the Koran to be handed to him or did the cleric simply give it to him?  What would you have done?  Throw it down on the ground??  And, how many people would have died as a result?  If it were me, I would have just kissed the damned thing and gone on with my agreed-to meeting.


Just like Obama and any important personage, everything is planned ahead of time, there are no surprises. The Koran was not just handed to him without him expecting it.



Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Jehanne on August 16, 2013, 07:34:06 PM
Seeing how angry and upset the true Catholic faithful are over this issue, if I were Pope, I would definitively not kiss the Koran!  I guess that I would be polite and just say, "No, thank you" and hope that things go well.  For me, "kissing something" is not necessarily a sign of reverence.  There are plenty of people whom I kissed during my life who I did not have affection and reverence for!

P.S.  Pope John Paul II was a bit of a putz.

P.P.S.  If JP II burns in Hell, I have no desire to join him there!
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 16, 2013, 11:30:08 PM
Quote from: TCat
There have been more days than I can remember where I ardently prayed for the most torturous martyrdom, to tell of my love of the truth which the son of God has deigned to show me. To die a martyr is the greatest grace of all! I wish and still pray for this grace everyday.


You should go in a public and open crusade against the Jews in the U.S. and exposing all their lies outside their buildings or you could go to Rome to publicly denounce the usurperers and especially the Chief of them all.

Things like that will probably get you killed quickly.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 17, 2013, 12:06:52 AM
Jehanne, I think you're backtracking a bit because you're embarrased about the reaction that your comment provoked.  But knowing this forum, I don't know how you could expect any other reaction.  We're not all great fighters, but when faced with an instance where you are encouraged to show reverence (Yes, a kiss is a sign of reverence, it is universally regarded as so, no one kisses something they abhor, and the Koran is something we must abhor) it will always be wrong to show that reverence, whether we fear for our health in refusing or not-- to revere blasphemies is inherently evil.  Pray to God that in the face of such a choice, He would move you to witness Him and His martyrs.  
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Jehanne on August 17, 2013, 07:46:04 AM
Believe me, I have kissed things which I (sort of) abhor!  (Well, not exactly, but it would have been socially awkward, to say the least, to have not kissed certain old women whom I had not seen in a long time.  I didn't enjoy doing it, but such was my duty.)

Again, I cannot read JP II's mind, so I do not know what he was thinking.  I agree that he did many scandalous things and I agree that traditional Catholic groups (such as the SSPX) not only have the right but the duty to withhold obedience from Popes such as JP II.  On the other hand, I do not believe that simply "kissing the Koran" constitutes an act of apostasy, and even if it does, I am not in the position to pass judgment on such an act, let alone when such an act is committed by the Roman Pontiff.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that JP II committed apostasy.  When he "kissed the Koran," he became an apostate, at least in the internal forum.  Was he beyond the "pale of forgiveness"?  What if he went to his confessor (he claimed to have confessed weekly), confessed his sin and apostasy, and received absolution?  Then, what?  It is for the confessor and not you or I to impose penance.  That's what the Church does and not you or I or anyone else.  What if JP II's penance was something other than public penance?

In my opinion, these types of scenarios are a problem for sedes.  Let's say that a Pope does, indeed, lose his Petrine office, but only in the internal forum.  Can he get it back?  If so, how?  Certainly, as "all sins can be forgiven," he should be able to be forgiven and absolved of his sins, and if so, he should be able to be restored to his former office.  After all, that happened with Peter, didn't it?  He was the leader of the Apostles prior to his denial of our Lord, and after his repentance, he was restored to his former station and rank.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Stephen Francis on August 17, 2013, 07:52:00 AM
My involvement in that scenario would have ended in my arrest and execution.

There are rolls of white paper in my home that I consider more worthy of respect than the Koran.

Offer me a Koran and expect about the same as if you offered me a rattlesnake or insulted my wife or children.

St. Francis of Assisi, preacher of Christ to the infidel Mohammedans, pray for us.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: jen51 on August 17, 2013, 08:24:05 AM
I would undergo torture before I would kiss that filthy book.

Jehanne, wether or not you personally believe that kissing something is a sign of reverence does not change the grievousness of the situation. At the very least surely you can admit that it is a sign of affection. the Popes feelings toward the Koran should not be affectionate but violent. The Pope knew exactly what he was doing and what was meant by kissing it.

Regarding what you mentioned about forgiveness- He is the Pope, absolved or not he was the Vicar of Christ- he was held to a much higher standard. An action like this from a Pope has much more grievous implications than the same action done by a mere layman. There is no need to sugar coat his offense. Any sincere Catholic can see what an abominable deed he did and we have every reason to denounce it and judge that it was detestable. Lets just call a spade a spade and move on.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Jehanne on August 17, 2013, 08:43:55 AM
I agree, and I admit that I was wrong.  The major reason that I am here is that I can grow in my Catholic faith and attain a deeper understanding of the One True Faith, which is Roman Catholicism.  So, yes, I think that Pope John Paul II's act of "Koran kissing" was at least material apostasy, if not formal apostasy, and I hope that he received forgiveness for his actions.  This is one of the dangers of false ecumenism, in that in having meetings with non-Catholics, we "open the door" to all sorts of sinful and scandalous acts, including, heresy and apostasy.

By the way, since my conversion to Catholicism over ten years ago, I have never participated in any ecumenical activities whatsoever, and if I were Pope, I would have never gone to Assisi.  In any case, "Time & Eternity" will tell, and with a certain amount of anticipation and trepidation, I await the Last Judgment.  If the recent Popes are, indeed, true Vicars of Christs, I think that they will be judged at the Final Judgment as being amongst the worst Popes of the Catholic Church.  I believe that the word which Christ will use to describe them will be "faithless".

Until then...
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: StCeciliasGirl on August 17, 2013, 09:51:50 AM
Glad to hear your last post, Jehanne. I was going to say,

Quote from: Jehanne
Believe me, I have kissed things which I (sort of) abhor!


Snip that habit. I have bad habits I've got to get rid of, too; it's no shame, as long as we admit they're bad habits, Confess them, etc. But true reverence should be reserved only for God. Sometimes I wish I were a bible thumper who could pull Scriptures out easily, because I know I've heard many Scriptures, Didache, and Church Fathers on reverence.

Quote from: Jehanne
In my opinion, these types of scenarios are a problem for sedes.  Let's say that a Pope does, indeed, lose his Petrine office, but only in the internal forum.  Can he get it back?  If so, how?  Certainly, as "all sins can be forgiven," he should be able to be forgiven and absolved of his sins


Well, we can't judge popes (—Boniface VIII, late 13thC Pope who knew how to handle business). But Wojtyla was part of a growing group of friends that set out to destroy the Petrine office with smiles on their faces, and were no popes. I wasn't sede until Frank (born too late; Wojtyla was all I knew, then BXVI seemed like a Godsend!) Then Frank came, and I saw this:

(http://i.imgur.com/5BgKTrN.jpg)

Yep, that's Frank, I think back in Montini's day (edit, no I guess Wojtyla is wearing a pope hat, but maybe it was just "for kicks"; maybe they passed it around  :laugh1: NO idea of the date). Now LBR, part of this group always had a worldly intent to be Very Nice Guys®, yet if you dig into their incomprehensible writings (Ratzinger is the clearest imo; don't try Wojtyla unless you intend to pull your eyelashes out in frustration), you might find that sadly, they were never Catholic at all. They were universalists, and possibly masons in fact. And you have to be Catholic to hold the Petrine office. Sure, they apparently took the world by storm because they were big, fat, giggly or simply friendly men who came out of nowhere (Roncalli), weren't even cardinals 5 years before they were "elected" Pope (Montini), and ...well, the rest are pictured above, except the unfortunate murdered one.

In these cases, it truly doesn't matter if they were "good people" or "just retarded" or whatnot. They weren't Catholic to begin with; and they poisoned the well with V2 and clowns and all sorts of evil, as prophesied (some prophecies not even released to the public, so we've got to go on what we know).

That's what's running the circus now (which, btw, it quite literally is). Imagine if there had been clowns in Boniface VIII's day. He would have made great sport of them! Or in St. Peter's day. (Yeah, don't try to imagine that. #Scary). I'd venture to say that St. Pope Pius X would have taken a machine gun and blown these popes all to Hell without batting an eyelash, then gotten on with his truly HOLY business.

These clowns we have now, who enjoy priest-Sodomites in makeup and circus clothes DURING THE MASS, would be some DEAD CLOWNS, except this is what the world and even the lukewarm "catholics" want now (a QUIETED "church" filled with Sodomites who judge nothing, as the NewPope even says, "who am I to judge").

(Sorry, these clowns fooled me for a long time, too. And they continue to fool many.)
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 17, 2013, 01:56:40 PM
Quote from: Jehanne
I didn't enjoy doing it, but such was my duty.)


How could it ever be anyone's "duty" to kiss the Koran? You say the wildest things. That's what happens when you deny the truth.

Quote from: Jehanne
Again, I cannot read JP II's mind, so I do not know what he was thinking.


“… for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple, and condemn him as a heretic.” St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, II, 30

"External heresy consists in dictis vel factis — not only in words, but also in “signs, deeds, and the omission of deeds.” (Merkelbach, Summa Theologiae Moralis, 1:746.)

Quote from: Jehanne
I agree that he did many scandalous things and I agree that traditional Catholic groups (such as the SSPX) not only have the right but the duty to withhold obedience from Popes such as JP II.


Actually you don't have the right or the duty to withhold obedience from a true Pope's laws, liturgy, teaching etc.

You can resist/reject a Pope's evil COMMAND, but not his laws, teachings, liturgy etc.

You cannot resist/reject the Pope's MAGISTERIUM.

Which makes me wonder, if you have to reject and dismiss 100% of what these antipopes say and do, and if you de facto pretend like they don't even exist anyways nor obey anything of what they say, why are you so bent on defending their "papacy" to which you don't even submit to?

Quote from: Jehanne
On the other hand, I do not believe that simply "kissing the Koran" constitutes an act of apostasy, and even if it does, I am not in the position to pass judgment on such an act, let alone when such an act is committed by the Roman Pontiff.


Oh but you certainly feel competent enough to judge what laws and teachings of their Magisterium you will reject and accept don't you. You certainly feel competent enough to judge your way to what you will believe and reject.

Quote from: Jehanne
Let's say, for argument's sake, that JP II committed apostasy.  When he "kissed the Koran," he became an apostate, at least in the internal forum.  Was he beyond the "pale of forgiveness"?  What if he went to his confessor (he claimed to have confessed weekly), confessed his sin and apostasy, and received absolution?  Then, what?  It is for the confessor and not you or I to impose penance.  That's what the Church does and not you or I or anyone else.  What if JP II's penance was something other than public penance?


The man lived and died as an ecumenical maniac and as an apostate. From the first to the last day of his "pontificate" apostasy and heresy was the name of the game, that goes for all these antipopes. Hardly a day goes by in which they don't say or do something heretical or apostate.

And only a totally public and world-wide abjuration would "save" these antipopes should they convert.

But you already know all this yet you insist. You are just seared.

Quote from: Jehanne
In my opinion, these types of scenarios are a problem for sedes.  Let's say that a Pope does, indeed, lose his Petrine office, but only in the internal forum.  Can he get it back?  If so, how?  Certainly, as "all sins can be forgiven," he should be able to be forgiven and absolved of his sins, and if so, he should be able to be restored to his former office.  After all, that happened with Peter, didn't it?  He was the leader of the Apostles prior to his denial of our Lord, and after his repentance, he was restored to his former station and rank.


Nothing whatsoever of what you say or will say in the future is problematic for sedevacantism in the slightest. Every single thing that you say has already been refuted and exposed for decades. You just keep rehashing the same old already-refuted mythical objections without ever bothering to look at the answer.

I even made a thread just for you and your "problems" and you pretty much went AWOL.

When you did appear and said something, it turned out to be the same old mindless things.

I refuted that junk and you never answered even one thing.

And not only that but you were even exposed as an apostate who would kiss the Koran.

You are extremely bad willed and seared.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Napoli on August 17, 2013, 02:22:36 PM
The koran is worthy of only spit. Muhomedans worship the devil.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Jehanne on August 17, 2013, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: Cathedra
And not only that but you were even exposed as an apostate who would kiss the Koran.


This is false; I would never do such a thing willingly, and I have never said that I would, but only, perhaps, under coercion, a position which I no longer maintain.  However, if there is even the slightest possibility that I would be guilty of apostasy, whether material or formal, then, no, my position now is that I would never, under any circumstances whatsoever, "kiss the Koran," even if I was certain that such could avert a World War.  Acts which could be intrinsically evil must be viewed as being intrinsically evil; such is the safer course to follow to save one's eternal soul.  So, yes, Pope John Paul II was guilty of the sin of apostasy against the Catholic faith; whether such was material or formal, I cannot say.  I can say that he should not have, under circumstances whatsoever or from any motive whatsoever, kissed the Koran, a non-inspired book written by a deluded, epileptic man with illusions of grandeur.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: MyrnaM on August 17, 2013, 05:56:49 PM
Jehanne, I am sure God is happy you changed your mind, but we all must remember none of us could do the correct thing without the grace of God helping us.  We must trust Him, depend on Him to be there for us.  
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 19, 2013, 06:05:27 PM
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Cathedra
And not only that but you were even exposed as an apostate who would kiss the Koran.


This is false; I would never do such a thing willingly, and I have never said that I would, but only, perhaps, under coercion, a position which I no longer maintain. ...

So, yes, Pope John Paul II was guilty of the sin of apostasy against the Catholic faith; whether such was material or formal, I cannot say.



So then you should be fine when JPII is "canonized a saint."


Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Jehanne on August 19, 2013, 07:30:12 PM
Quote from: Neil Obstat
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Cathedra
And not only that but you were even exposed as an apostate who would kiss the Koran.


This is false; I would never do such a thing willingly, and I have never said that I would, but only, perhaps, under coercion, a position which I no longer maintain. ...

So, yes, Pope John Paul II was guilty of the sin of apostasy against the Catholic faith; whether such was material or formal, I cannot say.



So then you should be fine when JPII is "canonized a saint."




I don't know.  I guess that it depends if the sede position is correct, and as someone who has seriously considered that position, I don't know.  It is difficult to believe that a true Pope can canonize someone who is not in Heaven; how could someone who genuinely possesses the "Keys to the Kingdom" do such a thing?  On the other hand, if Pope Francis is a fake, an anti-Pope, no explanation is needed, is there?

For me, what would be the "final straw"?  It's kind of like a person who has a serious illness -- they will either get better on their own, with or without medical treatment, or they will die.  I suppose if Pope Francis would ever contradict, explicitly, the Church's teachings on the natural law, I would become a sede.  For instance, if he would "reverse" the Church's teachings on the immorality of artificial contraception or homosexual acts, then I would certainly be convinced that sedevacanatism is the correct position.  Right now I have some doubts, but that's all that they are.  No "smoking gun" so far, but that remains to be seen.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 19, 2013, 10:19:28 PM
.

Thank you, Jehanne, that was a reasoned response and not
reactionary.  This is going to be quite a cross for Catholics to
bear, if it finally does happen, and we have yet a little time to
work out the knots and kinks in our attitude and outlook,
but from the present point of perspective, things are looking
pretty bleak.  

Our Lady told us that it would be when all seems lost and
when our faith will be pushed to the point where there is no
more hope, that She will intervene.  

She said that "It will be late," but that the Pope and bishops
together will consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of
Mary, and Russia will convert, and She will save us from the
complete loss of our Faith by that means.  

Well, it has been late for the past 30 years, but by Our Lady's
standard, when She says "late" I guess it means that it can't
get any later without it "crossing over the limit line."  Like,
when she saves a soul falling into hell, she stops his fall just
before he passes through the gates of hell, from whence there
is no return.

I remember a Superman episode when a woman was falling
from a tall building, screaming and flailing her arms, and "our
hero" swooped in to save her at the last possible moment:  
He put his arms under her and slowed her fall, so as to come
to a complete stop just as she was about to hit the sidewalk,
in front of a crowd of people.  He then released her, standing
safely upright on the ground, and she thanked him.  He replied,
"You're welcome," and then he leapt into the air and flew off
in front of everyone.  

That was a "just-in-time Rescue."



Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 19, 2013, 10:57:13 PM
.

"The cement has already dried..."



Quote
... if he would "reverse" the Church's teachings on the immorality of artificial contraception or homosexual acts, ...




Two things about the WYD visit:


1)  When he put the beach ball and the T-shirt on the altar at
St. Mary Major, I thought, "These are things they passed out
at WYD," so to speak, inasmuch as they are mundane objects
that remind one of the event.  Well, what else do they "pass
out"at WYD?  They pass out the Eucharist like it's candy, and
they pass out condoms.  Now he wouldn't need to set the
Eucharist on the altar at St. Mary Major, and he wouldn't dare
set some condoms on the altar.  But what he DID set there so
we can be reminded of WYD reminded me of those two other
things, and so, by association, what's the difference?  To me,
the message is literally the same:  it was as if Francis had set
a plastic cup with Communion hosts, along with a few
packages of condoms on the TRADITIONAL altar of St. Mary
Major.  I know a traditional priest, who has a degree in
theology from the Pope in Rome, so he is an approved
theologian, and when I told him this, he agreed with me: It's
the same thing by association!  
He told me, that when he was
in Rome he wanted to say Mass at that altar of St. Mary Major,
but he was unable to get "permission."  It is among the most
ornate and beautiful un-corrupted altars left in the world.  It is a
principal archbasilica in Rome, second only to St. John Lateran,
the Pope's "Cathedral." What's interesting is, the Pope didn't
need permission to have access to this most inaccessible altar,
and he made a media event out of placing a beach ball there
with a WYD T-shirt.  But a trad priest, with a degree in theology
from the Pope in Rome, is "not allowed" to say Mass at this
same altar.  IOW, on the surface, this beach ball / T-shirt "event"
is a "so what?" kind of thing, but if you look at it a bit more
critically, it becomes quite ominous, indeed, as it implies papal
approval of contraception by association.



2)  What did the so-called president of Brazil do the day after
Francis left?  She signed into law the legalization of same-sex
so called marriage in Brazil.  Now, that's not something that
Francis would have gone on record condoning, but did he react
to it?  Did he publish a denouncement?  Did he show his
disapproval in any way whatsoever?  No.  So, by his SILENCE,
he approves of it.  And her apostate act can be seen as a bad
fruit of Francis' visit to her country, when he met her in person
and is on YouTube planting a hot kiss on her cheek.  "By their
fruits you shall know them."



Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 19, 2013, 11:36:28 PM
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Cathedra
And not only that but you were even exposed as an apostate who would kiss the Koran.


This is false; I would never do such a thing willingly, and I have never said that I would, but only, perhaps, under coercion, a position which I no longer maintain.  However, if there is even the slightest possibility that I would be guilty of apostasy, whether material or formal, then, no, my position now is that I would never, under any circumstances whatsoever, "kiss the Koran," even if I was certain that such could avert a World War.


And did i say that you would do so willingly and because you would like it?

Read the title of the thread again.

Quote from: Jehanne
Acts which could be intrinsically evil must be viewed as being intrinsically evil; such is the safer course to follow to save one's eternal soul.  So, yes, Pope John Paul II was guilty of the sin of apostasy against the Catholic faith; whether such was material or formal, I cannot say.  I can say that he should not have, under circumstances whatsoever or from any motive whatsoever, kissed the Koran, a non-inspired book written by a deluded, epileptic man with illusions of grandeur.


You bet he was a formal apostate.

Again, you speak as if though the only thing he did was kiss the koran.

Assisi and praising voodoo were height-of-iniquity caliber.
Title: Jehanne: "I would kiss the Koran under pressure"
Post by: Cathedra on August 19, 2013, 11:52:27 PM
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Neil Obstat
So then you should be fine when JPII is "canonized a saint."


I don't know.  I guess that it depends if the sede position is correct, and as someone who has seriously considered that position, I don't know.


Seriously considered the position is the last thing it looks like you have done.

You routinely ignore what is directed at you and respond nothing.

Tell me, have you read all the articles and arguments of sedevacantism from start to finish? At least the ones Cekada has written?

Quote from: Jehanne
It is difficult to believe that a true Pope can canonize someone who is not in Heaven; how could someone who genuinely possesses the "Keys to the Kingdom" do such a thing?


Uh, HELLO!!! EARTH TO JEHANNE!!! HE COULD NOT BECAUSE HE IS NOT A REAL POPE!

And NEWSFLASH: this already happened anyways.

Did they not "canonize" Mother Teresa and Escriva, both public heretics and apostates? Do you accept those "con-anizations"?

Quote from: Jehanne
On the other hand, if Pope Francis is a fake, an anti-Pope, no explanation is needed, is there?


What is said in the movie The Song of Bernadette applies to people like you:

For those who believe in God no explanation is necessary; for those who don't believe in God no explanation will suffice.

Quote from: Jehanne
For me, what would be the "final straw"?


I would bet Jorge could celebrate Hannukah with Jews and light menorahs and deny Christ in front of Rabbis and you would still consider him Pope.

Oh wait...that already happened.

Quote from: Jehanne
I suppose if Pope Francis would ever contradict, explicitly, the Church's teachings on the natural law, I would become a sede.


Oh so the fact that he has said and done EXPLICITLY HERETICAL, BLASPHEMOUS AND APOSTATE things is not enough for you?

The natural law is above the Divine Law then?

You are an idolater.

Quote from: Jehanne
For instance, if he would "reverse" the Church's teachings on the immorality of artificial contraception or homosexual acts, then I would certainly be convinced that sedevacanatism is the correct position.  Right now I have some doubts, but that's all that they are.  No "smoking gun" so far, but that remains to be seen.


The smoking gun has been there for decades without even getting into the issue of the personal heresy or apostasy of the antipopes.

That is, it has been there for honest and good willed people.

There is no bigger blind than the one who doesn't want to see.

Leave them alone: blind they are, guides of the blind. And if the blind be guide to the blind, both fall into the ditch.