Author Topic: Jansenists and Jesuits (Read 2759 times)

roscoe · « **on:** May 11, 2010, 10:36:48 PM »

I have just encountered the following while reading van Kley's book on the Jansenists and Jesuits.

"The Jesuits...... took special alarm at the apparent similarity between St Augustines doctrines of gratuitous predestination and efficacious grace..... to the Prot doctrine of justification or salvation by faith alone". :smoke-pot:

Lighthouse · « **Reply #1 on:** May 12, 2010, 02:46:03 PM »

You are quoting to us from a book by an expressed Calvinist. Please explain why we should be interested.

roscoe · « **Reply #2 on:** May 12, 2010, 04:20:27 PM »

Even though we have philosophical differences with some historians, this does not mean their work is irrellevant. Have you read Gibbon, Mrs Webster, Chadwick or Kertzer? History is an object in and of itself.
If you have a disagreement with the authors statement above please elaborate.

roscoe · « **Reply #3 on:** May 12, 2010, 04:25:55 PM »

I have also read another book by Henneke Kardell(J)-- Adolf Hitler: Founder of Israel. I can assure this form that even though the author is a Judaic, the work is quite relevant.

roscoe · « **Reply #4 on:** May 12, 2010, 05:29:26 PM »

With typical Calvinist/ Jansenist thinking, van Kley sees the Jesuits as 'Rennaissance Humanists' and accusses them of 'laxity'.

roscoe · « **Reply #5 on:** May 12, 2010, 05:42:29 PM »

The author also claims that St Ignatius minimises mans corruption and the effects of Adams fall. From a Catholic persective I would disagree. What St Ignatius does is put The Redemption on a higher plane. Thus the fall of man is indeed diminished.

Caraffa · « **Reply #6 on:** May 12, 2010, 09:13:33 PM »

Quote from: roscoe

With typical Calvinist/ Jansenist thinking, van Kley sees the Jesuits as 'Rennaissance Humanists' and accusses them of 'laxity'.

The Jesuits originally started out with a more "legalistic" approach emphasizing free will while seeing the Protestant doctrine of Calvin and Luther as a license to sin.

Quote

"The Jesuits...... took special alarm at the apparent similarity between St Augustines doctrines of gratuitous predestination and efficacious grace..... to the Prot doctrine of justification or salvation by faith alone".

St. Augustine never taught faith alone. Are you saying that St. Augustine's view of predestination is in error?

roscoe · « **Reply #7 on:** May 12, 2010, 09:20:36 PM »

No-- I am just quoting the author. Free will is probably the essence of Jesuit philosophy. It is interesting that during the whole grace/ free will-- Jansenist/ Jesuit/ Dominican controversy that the Dominicans sided with the Jesuits b4 the Jansenists.

roscoe · « **Reply #8 on:** May 12, 2010, 09:48:48 PM »

The author's philosophy says that the whole org of the RC Church is 'semi-pelagian'. The book was pub in 1975 :smoke-pot:

Caraffa · « **Reply #9 on:** May 12, 2010, 10:00:12 PM »

Quote from: roscoe

No-- I am just quoting the author. Free will is probably the essence of Jesuit philosophy. It is interesting that during the whole grace/ free will-- Jansenist/ Jesuit/ Dominican controversy that the Dominicans sided with the Jesuits b4 the Jansenists.

I have always seen the Dominicans as disliking both, take for instance Bishop Bossuet. Although he wansn't a Dominican, he adopted their views on grace and disliked both the Jesuits and the Jansenists.

Interestingly, the Jesuit laxity probably came from Protestant thought. Protestants believe in a thing a called "Christian Liberty," meaning in questionable things (those which sola scriptura doesn't address) liberty. So it shouldn't surprise us that most have no problem with things like birth control, bad tv shows and music, etc.

Lighthouse · « **Reply #10 on:** May 12, 2010, 10:28:15 PM »

Am I correct in interpreting you to mean that the best way to arrive at Truth is to pick up a book by an enemy of the Church, and then form your own self-pleasing answer?

roscoe · « **Reply #11 on:** May 12, 2010, 11:34:47 PM »

I do not understand the question-- could you be specific? I am not aware of any best way to arrive at truth. Something is either true or it's not.

Mr van Kley is an excellent historian. A Catholic may not agree with his interpretation of same, but he generally gives all sides of a controversy very clearly.

Re: forming a self pleasing answer on my own, I wasn't aware I was asked anything. :smoke-pot:

Lighthouse · « **Reply #12 on:** May 13, 2010, 11:14:39 AM »

Quote from: roscoe

Even though we have philosophical differences with some historians, this does not mean their work is irrellevant. Have you read Gibbon...

No. Have you? Have you read the Index of Forbidden Books? You will find Mr. Gibbon there.

Philosophy be hanged! What about theology, the mother of all sciences?

roscoe · « **Reply #13 on:** May 13, 2010, 12:18:57 PM »

The statement has been made above that Mr Gibbon's book on the Decline of the Roman Empire has been put on the index. Could a citation for this action be provided? What year and which Pope did this?

Lighthouse · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2010, 01:42:14 PM »

Quote from: roscoe

The statement has been made above that Mr Gibbon's book on the Decline of the Roman Empire has been put on the index. Could a citation for this action be provided? What year and which Pope did this?

Well to save a lot of work I might offer a source from an Internet site chosen at random:

Fordham

1783. Which would, I believe, be Pope Pius VI.