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Author Topic: J’ACCUSE  (Read 11358 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: J’ACCUSE
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2024, 08:38:07 AM »
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  • People slowly seem to be getting on board with Fr. Chazal's semi-sede position, but what again is the difference between what Chazal promotes now and +des Lauriers promoted decades ago?  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #76 on: June 30, 2024, 08:48:42 AM »
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  • People slowly seem to be getting on board with Fr. Chazal's semi-sede position, but what again is the difference between what Chazal promotes now and +des Lauriers promoted decades ago? 

    Fr. Chazal says in his recent talk (posted on several threads recently) that he follows the view of Cajetan and John of St. Thomas. I don't think he takes a semi-sede position, even though it may appear that he does. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #77 on: June 30, 2024, 08:59:40 AM »
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  • Fr. Chazal says in his recent talk (posted on several threads recently) that he follows the view of Cajetan and John of St. Thomas. I don't think he takes a semi-sede position, even though it may appear that he does.

    Fr. Chazal holds that Jorge Bergoglio is not bestowed with the papal munus by Christ.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #78 on: June 30, 2024, 09:02:18 AM »
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  • Fr. Chazal holds that Jorge Bergoglio is not bestowed with the papal munus by Christ.

    And yet Fr. Chazal still refers to Francis as "Pope Francis."
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #79 on: June 30, 2024, 09:04:23 AM »
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  • And yet Fr. Chazal still refers to Francis as "Pope Francis."

    It's only a name to Fr. Chazal.  He uses it because that's what Jorge Bergoglio is generally known by.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #80 on: June 30, 2024, 09:06:07 AM »
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  • It's only a name to Fr. Chazal.  He uses it because that's what Jorge Bergoglio is generally known by.

    How many sedevacantists do you know whom actually refer to Francis as "Pope Francis?" Do you refer to Francis as "Pope Francis?" 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #81 on: June 30, 2024, 09:07:43 AM »
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  • How many sedevacantists do you know whom actually refer to Francis as "Pope Francis?" Do you refer to Francis as "Pope Francis?"

    Read here:

    https://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/Fr_Chazal_on_Whether_Jorge_Bergoglio_Is_Pope.pdf

    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #82 on: June 30, 2024, 09:17:01 AM »
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  • Read here:

    https://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/Fr_Chazal_on_Whether_Jorge_Bergoglio_Is_Pope.pdf

    Okay, I see in his email to tony La Rosa, in which Fr. Chazal says...."bergolio is not the pope, but the law has not caught up with him yet, and he still plays the idiot on the balcony of St. Peter."  So there is some truth to what you say. Do you yourself believe that the law has not caught up with bergolio, as Fr. Chazal asserts?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #83 on: June 30, 2024, 10:56:20 AM »
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  • Yes, Father Chazal is semi-sede (closest to sedeprivationism) despite Meg's gratuitous denials.  I have zero issues with his position, and embrace it.

    Here's the bottom line in +Vigano's statement, affirming the MAJOR of SVism.  This is all I really care about.  One can quibble about the "5 Opinions" til the cows come home or debate Bellarmine this vs. Cajetan that.  We'll never solve the debate over those details.  But whatever "solution" we propose, we simply CANNOT throw the Catholic Church and the Magisterium under the bus as many/most modern R&R do.

    This is THE KEY DEVELOPMENT in +Vigano's latest statement --
    Quote
    Is it possible then that the Church has begun to teach error? Can we believe that the one Ark of salvation is at the same time also an instrument of perdition for souls? That the Mystical Body separates itself from its Divine Head, Jesus Christ, making the Savior’s promise fail? This cannot, of course, be admissible, and those who support such an idea fall into heresy and schism. The Church cannot teach error, nor can her Head, the Roman Pontiff, be at the same time heretical and orthodox, Peter and Judas, in communion with all his predecessors and at the same time in schism with them. The only theologically possible answer is that the Conciliar Hierarchy, which proclaims itself Catholic but embraces a faith different from that constantly taught for two thousand years by the Catholic Church, belongs to another entity and therefore does not represent the true Church of Christ.

    This is precisely what I've been arguing for years here on CathInfo now.  He's also hereby rejecting FrankenChurch theory.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #84 on: June 30, 2024, 11:57:55 AM »
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    I'm not sure what you've been smoking lately Pax, sede-privationist? You're slipping friend.
    ???  I've been talking about sede-privationism on this site for 3-4 years.  When Fr Chazal's book came out (I watched a speech he gave about it), I was one of the first people to say that Fr Chazal's view is similar to Fr Wathen's and also the (non-dogmatic) view of +Sanborn and others.

    I've been very consistent about this.  You just get caught up in the "sede" label and reject it immediately.

    It's clear that +Bellarmine and others "kicked the tires" on theoretical circuмstances like this; "sede-privationism" is not a new idea (i.e. the pope retains his temporal office, but his spiritual office is "impounded" due to heresy).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #85 on: June 30, 2024, 12:02:24 PM »
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    The only theologically possible answer is that the Conciliar Hierarchy, which proclaims itself Catholic but embraces a faith different from that constantly taught for two thousand years by the Catholic Church, belongs to another entity and therefore does not represent the true Church of Christ.
    Our Lady of LaSalette:  "The Church will be in eclipse."

    Now, Our Lady described to us what is happening, but she did not explain it.  Ultimately, we can't fully understand what is going on.


    Offline Texana

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #86 on: June 30, 2024, 12:34:12 PM »
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  • ???  I've been talking about sede-privationism on this site for 3-4 years.  When Fr Chazal's book came out (I watched a speech he gave about it), I was one of the first people to say that Fr Chazal's view is similar to Fr Wathen's and also the (non-dogmatic) view of +Sanborn and others.

    I've been very consistent about this.  You just get caught up in the "sede" label and reject it immediately.

    It's clear that +Bellarmine and others "kicked the tires" on theoretical circuмstances like this; "sede-privationism" is not a new idea (i.e. the pope retains his temporal office, but his spiritual office is "impounded" due to heresy).
    Dear Pax Vobis,
    Has anyone researched who were the teachers of Bishop des Lauriers and Fr. Ratzinger? Their theses on the possibility of munus and officium being separated are eerily similar.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #87 on: June 30, 2024, 12:51:50 PM »
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  • Do you yourself believe that the law has not caught up with bergolio, as Fr. Chazal asserts?

    Jorge Bergoglio is outside the Catholic Church.  Therefore, he does not hold ordinary jurisdiction for any office.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #88 on: June 30, 2024, 12:56:21 PM »
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  • ???  I've been talking about sede-privationism on this site for 3-4 years.  When Fr Chazal's book came out (I watched a speech he gave about it), I was one of the first people to say that Fr Chazal's view is similar to Fr Wathen's and also the (non-dogmatic) view of +Sanborn and others.

    I confirm that this is the truth.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: J’ACCUSE
    « Reply #89 on: June 30, 2024, 02:21:44 PM »
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  • Jorge Bergoglio is outside the Catholic Church.  Therefore, he does not hold ordinary jurisdiction for any office.

    How do you square the above with what Fr. Chazal said that in that email to Tony La Rosa? I would agree that, for Fr. Chazal, Francis does not hold ordinary jurisdiction. Instead, Fr. Chazal sees Francis as a sort of place holder for the seat of Peter. Would you agree with that?

    Fr. Chazal wrote:

    ...."Sedes deny the juridical, public nature of the Catholic Church and the need to keep the apostolic succession promised, even via delinquents in the Faith. The Catholic Church has never said the pope is impeccable in the faith if he does not engage this impeccable power. If you deny this, you deny all treaties on papal infallibility. Infallibility has conditions."
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29