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Author Topic: Italian Lodge Claims John XXIII  (Read 5096 times)

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Re: Italian Lodge Claims John XXIII
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2022, 11:24:22 AM »
In addition, most [if not practically all] sedevacantists aren't focused on personal heresy or affiliations.  They are focused on the fact that these men promulgate/profess/teach the Universal Church Vatican II's new non-Catholic religion.
Have you met "most [if not practically all] sedevecantists"?
Such statements have no value.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Italian Lodge Claims John XXIII
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2022, 01:13:01 PM »
As far as Pius IX the reason I put "amongst other reasons" in quotes was to show that that wasn't the ONLY reason some sede's suspect him (or throw him out completely as a valid Pope) but I didn't want to get into all that here.

My main point was that if he (Pius IX) WAS a Freemason before his election then he would have been automatically excommunicated before his election and never would have had a valid Papacy. 

Most of the Vacancy Pushers won't consider even the Vatican I Council as legitimate and throw out all Popes as Anti-Popes past that so Pius XII's decisions will mean nothing and if Pius XII was a Freemason then of course he would lift excommunications as impediments but if he was a Freemason he wouldn't have held the office at all.

I don't know of any sedevacantist who questions Pius IX ... except one guy I ran into once (now deceased), but his reasoning was rather bizarre and not worth going into here.  In any case, I would have to imagine that the same reasoning would apply in the hypothetical scenario as would with the notion of heresy disqualifying a legitimate pope, i.e. that his excommunication would have to be MANIFEST in order for him to have been excluded from the papacy.  If someone had occurred one of those ipso facto excommunications, and yet it was unknown to anyone else, perhaps not even to the perpetrator himself, that certainly would not preclude the legitimacy of a papal election.  As per St. Robert Bellarmine, excommunication would render a pope illegitimate on the grounds that it was one way in which someone could be severed of membership in the Church, but membership (or lack thereof) must be manifest.

But, as 2Vermont points out, the core issue really isn't about the persons involved, but rather about the fact that it's not possible for legitimate popes to wreck the Church as these V2 papal claimants have.  As to why they're illegitimate, that can be the subject of debate (and I myself hold to the Siri theory).


Re: Italian Lodge Claims John XXIII
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2022, 01:14:00 PM »
Have you met "most [if not practically all] sedevecantists"?
Such statements have no value.
No, I haven't but I have been on trad forums for 15+ years now, so I base my statements on my experience with sedes on forums and those I also know IRL.

Whether such statements have any value is just your newbie opinion.  


Re: Italian Lodge Claims John XXIII
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2022, 01:15:24 PM »
I don't know of any sedevacantist who questions Pius IX ... except one guy I ran into once (now deceased), but his reasoning was rather bizarre and not worth going into here.  In any case, I would have to imagine that the same reasoning would apply in the hypothetical scenario as would with the notion of heresy disqualifying a legitimate pope, i.e. that his excommunication would have to be MANIFEST in order for him to have been excluded from the papacy.  If someone had occurred one of those ipso facto excommunications, and yet it was unknown to anyone else, perhaps not even to the perpetrator himself, that certainly would not preclude the legitimacy of a papal election.  As per St. Robert Bellarmine, excommunication would render a pope illegitimate on the grounds that it was one way in which someone could be severed of membership in the Church, but membership (or lack thereof) must be manifest.

But, as 2Vermont points out, the core issue really isn't about the persons involved, but rather about the fact that it's not possible for legitimate popes to wreck the Church as these V2 papal claimants have.  As to why they're illegitimate, that can be the subject of debate (and I myself hold to the Siri theory).
But epiphany says my statement has no value! 

Re: Italian Lodge Claims John XXIII
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2022, 03:14:26 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont 7/11/2022, 1:14:00 PM
No, I haven't but I have been on trad forums for 15+ years now, so I base my statements on my experience with sedes on forums and those I also know IRL.

Whether such statements have any value is just your newbie opinion. 

You stated:
"In addition, most [if not practically all] sedevacantists aren't focused on personal heresy or affiliations.  They are focused on the fact that these men promulgate/profess/teach the Universal Church Vatican II's new non-Catholic religion."

To which i commented:
"Have you met "most [if not practically all] sedevecantists"?
Such statements have no value."

Now you are saying "I base my statements on my experience...", which means you should have qualified your original statement to indicate "based on my experience" rather than "most [if not practically all]" because you cannot know "most [if not practically all] sedevecantists".