Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher

I think you hit it spot on... If hundreds of brilliant minds, hundreds of years and the ordinary teaching of the Magisterium has not seen a contradiction, chances are you are wrong on your "observation."

Not necessarily.  For example the first galaxy outside of the Milky Way was only discovered in 1923.  Now, thanks to the Hubble Telescope we know there are 100s of billions of other galaxies in every direction one cares to look.

I doubt a lot of scientific theories (like Evolution) but it is pretty difficult to doubt that these galaxies are out there because they are based on direct observations.  There is no difference between viewing them through the Hubble telescope and viewing the moon through a telescope.

 (watch from 1:30mins in)



Those hundreds of brilliant minds did not have access to the knowledge we have today.

It is savouring if heresy to think that it is somehow comparable to use science as an example for sacred theology... I have no idea what was the whole point of your post... Seriously. We are talking about the most basic fundamental truth of the faith. Who constitutes a member of the Church, and whether or not it is necessary to believe in the Trinity for salvation, "hardly the knowledge we have today."

It shows how confused you are by "doubting" Evolution. You should reject it, 100% not 99%. If you are doubt is wilful then I would be worried about the state of your soul. Stay away from topics that will only add to your confusion, Saint Thomas advices, "Because you have asked me, my brother John, most dear to me in Christ, how to set about aquiring the treasure of knowledge, this is the advice I pass on to you: that you should choose to enter by the small rivers, and not go right away into the sea, because you should move from easy things to difficult things."

We are talking about Dogma it completely goes together with Divine Revelation, all of which was given to us and has nothing to do with scientific discoveries or technology.  :geezer:

I think you hit it spot on... If hundreds of brilliant minds, hundreds of years and the ordinary teaching of the Magisterium has not seen a contradiction, chances are you are wrong on your "observation." Quit pretending to be more clever and intelligent then everyone before you, no one doubted Dogma for if you even for one second believe this it would logically lead to many canonized Saints going straight to Hell. Then its your belief against the word of your Mother the Catholic Church the Immaculate Spouse of Christ.

This is one of those dead dogs that just never goes back to rest, poor old yeller! Just because some wanna be "Catholics" who are really modernist in disguise hi-jacked certain Catholic terms does not somehow change anything.

Invincible ignorance = native savages who are judged by the natural law. Any other interpretation is foreign to that of the real approved theologians of Holy Mother Church.

This is the teaching of the Saints, now the more recent theological speculations are just that theological speculations. They do not have any sort of unanimity and have no precedent in the teaching authority of the Church. You are safe to believe as the great Doctors have believed, especially when the authority of the Church has specifically never even remotely condemned them in any way shape or form, for those opinions.

Its funny how many people are so concerned about those savages, when the reality is that the Church has almost reached the 4 corners of the world. Sure there are certain regions that might not have access, but it is safe to say that one way or another they will hear of the teachings of Our Blessed Saviour. Even if through Muhammadans or some other false religion, but they will hear about it. They will then have to make a choice at some point, God makes no mistakes. He gives EVERYONE a chance at salvation, O ye of little faith.

Indeed, as you say: "If hundreds of brilliant minds, hundreds of years and the ordinary teaching of the Magisterium has not seen a contradiction, chances are you are wrong on your "observation." HOWEVER, it is you ThomisticPhilosopher who you are describing, for no Father, Saint, Doctor, Council, or catechism before the 20th century taught that salvation could be achieved by people with no explicit desire to be Catholics or belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation. That theory did not exist till the 1500's, and did not become widespread till the 20th century. Therefore by your own analysis you have condemned your own belief.

P.S.- your definition of invincible ignorance is just that, your own, for the theologians have never limited it to your "native savages".

The 1917 CIC says that a heretic is one who doubts or denies any dogma, but isnt the whole speculation of whether someone can be saved outside the Church or without supernatural faith, doubting the Athanasian Creed and the dogma itself?

The Athanasian Creed clearly and emphatically says no one can be saved without the Catholic Faith, but how can these theologians speculate the direct opposite with impunity?

Isnt all theorizing and speculation closed for good once a dogma is defined? And is not the salvation dogma one of the most defined dogmas? So how come there is so much speculation going on?

It makes it seem like we dont have the truth about the dogma after all and we still dont know what the truth is.

The Athanasian Creed, taught and believed by all the Fathers, Saints, Doctors, Councils and catechisms (before the 20th century):

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
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The theological speculation which came into existence in the 1500's, and was foisted upon the faithful in the 20th century and believed by Lover of Truth and others here:


The truth is that once the Catholic has fully digested Lover of Truth’s “theology” and his treatment of the dogma, all that remains of the defined dogma Outside the Church There is No Salvation is: unless you believe in God, and that He rewards good and punishes evil, you cannot be saved. The necessity of having the “Catholic Faith” is gone; people who have the “Faith” of Jєωs and Muslims can be “inside” the Church without being members.