[Lover of Truth]

I leave a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1910 A.D.) and here is the response I get.

By whose authority do you go on your crusades against "Feeneyites"? Get back in your place, layman.

Not only is a balanced, civil and sane approach lacking but Catholic charity as well.  Heretics take it personal when they are called out for their heresy I guess.  

It also got 3 thumbs down and no thumbs up?

Is this a Catholic forum?

Here is the quote BTW:

The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910)
Vol. 14, TOLERATION, J. Pohle

But does the proposition that outside the Church there is no salvation involve the doctrine so often attributed to Catholicism, that the Catholic Church, in virtue of the principle, "condemns and must condemn all non-Catholics"? This is by no means the case. The foolish unchristian maxim that those who are outside the Church must for that very reason be eternally lost is no legitimate conclusion from Catholic dogma. The infliction of eternal damnation pertains not to the Church, but to God, Who alone can scrutinize the conscience. The task of the Church is confined exclusively to the formulating of the principle, which expresses a condition of salvation imposed by God Himself, and does not extend to the examination of the persons, who may or may not satisfy this condition. Care for one's own salvation is the personal concern of the individual. And in this matter the Church shows the greatest possible consideration for the good faith and the innocence of the erring person. Not that she refers, as is often stated, the eternal salvation of the heterodox solely and exclusively to "invincible ignorance", and thus makes sanctifying ignorance a convenient gate to heaven for the stupid. She places the efficient cause of the eternal salvation of all men objectively in the merits of the Redeemer, and subjectively in justification through baptism or through good faith enlivened by the perfect love of God, both of which may be found outside the Catholic Church. Whoever indeed has recognized the true Church of Christ, but contrary to his better knowledge refuses to enter it, and whoever becomes perplexed as to the truth of his belief, but fails to investigate his doubts seriously, no longer lives in good faith, but exposes himself to the danger of eternal damnation, since he rashly contravenes an important command of God. Otherwise the gentle breathing of grace is not confined within the walls of the Catholic Church, but reaches the hearts of many who stand afar, working in them the marvel of justification and thus ensuring the eternal salvation of numberless men who either, like upright Jєωs and pagans, do not know the true Church, or, like so many Protestants educated in gross prejudice, cannot appreciate her true nature. To all such, the Church does not close the gate of Heaven, although she insists that there are essential means of grace which are not within the reach of non-Catholics. In his allocution "Singulari quadam" of 9 December, 1854, which emphasized the dogma of the Church as necessary for salvation, Pius IX uttered the consoling principle: "Sed tamen pro certo...." (But it is likewise certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if their ignorance is invincible, are not, in this matter, guilty of any fault in the sight of God). (Denzinger n. 1647)

. . . As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull "Unigenitus" the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel: . . . no grace is given outside the Church. . . just as Alexander VIII has already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: . . . (Pagans, Jєωs, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ). . . Catholics who are conversant with the teachings of their Church know how to draw the proper conclusions. . .

____

Nope the Catholic teaching is wrong and the Feeneyites have it right.  Poor deluded saintly scholars, never had a chance.  Feeneyism the "Catholic" alternative to Catholicism .

[Jehanne]

You act like there is some conflict between what the Catholic Church teaches and what Father Feeney taught.  Consider the following the propositions:

1.  Does the character received in sacramental Baptism confer additional grace, even if the individual in question was already in a state of grace and ready for Heaven without sacarmental Baptism?

2.  Are we "allowed to hope" that everyone who makes it to Heaven has ended this life with the character of sacramental Baptism?

3.  Are we "allowed to believe", even profess, that the omnipotent One and Triune God at least has the capability to bring sacramental Baptism to whomever He wishes?

If you answer "Yes" to the above propositions, then you have no quarrel with this follower of Father Feeney, at least from my perspective.

[MyrnaM]

You should believe all the Church teaches including BoB and BoD



St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Blood and Desire
 ...Concerning Baptism of Blood and Desire An Extract from St Alphonsus Liguori’s Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7 Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek...
 ...is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood. We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was...
http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_stalph.html
   

 Blood and Desire: Teachings of Popes, Councils, Fathers, Doctors, Theologians
 ...Baptism of Blood and of Desire From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
 ...all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God...
http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_quotes.shtml
   

 Editor's Letter for Issue #122 of The Reign of Mary
 ...this to mean that “Baptism of Desire” is sufficient to save an adult, who through no fault of his own, cannot receive Baptism of Water, but this is not...
 ...the necessary acts of supernatural faith and charity which accompany Baptism by desire. I find it interesting that Fr. Brian hαɾɾιson, the same Novus...
http://www.cmri.org/rm122-editors_letter.html
   

 Adsum: Mater Dei Seminary Newsletter January 2004
 ...Baptism of Blood and of Desire From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
 ...all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God...
http://www.cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html
   

 Decrees of Vatican II Compared with Past Infallible Church Teaching: Liturgy
 ...Church, he must still follow the natural law to be saved (implicit baptism of desire). It is evident, according to Catholic theology, that these false...
http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_non-christian.shtml
   

 Decrees of Vatican II Compared with Past Infallible Church Teaching: Ecuмenism
 ...is striving to overcome. Nevertheless, all those justified by faith through baptism are incorporated into Christ. They, therefore, have a right to be...
 ...and one shepherd...” in the sense that Christ thereby merely expressed a desire or a prayer which as yet has not been granted. The Church, they say, is...
http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_ecuмenism.shtml
   

 Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#117)
 ...One more discussion on baptism of desire: Neither baptism of desire nor baptism of blood are the sacrament of Baptism, but in cases of necessity they...
 ...Michael and Peter Dimond why they reject the Church’s teaching on Baptism of Desire and of Blood. As of June 1, 2004, there has been no reply or...
http://www.cmri.org/rm117.html
   

 Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#115)
 ...Concerning Baptism of Blood and Desire Extract from St. Alphonsus Liguori: Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7 “Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek...
 ...into Baptism of water [‘fluminis’], of desire [‘flaminis’ = wind] and of blood... Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by...
http://www.cmri.org/rm115.html
   

 Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#116)
 ...Baptism of Desire and of Blood From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
 ...necessity of Baptism. As we can see from the following quotes, it is necessary for salvation to belong to the Catholic Church — at least by desire. It...
http://www.cmri.org/rm116.html
   

 Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#118)
 ......Arguing as we sometimes do with those who deny (heretically) Baptism of Blood and of Desire, it is important to understand that God creates no one for...
http://www.cmri.org/rm118.html

[Stubborn]

I leave a quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1910 A.D.) and here is the response I get.

FYI, Pascendi dominici gregis - Encyclical of Pope Pius X - On the Doctrines of the Modernists . . . . . Given at St. Peter's, Rome, on the 8th day of September, 1907, the fifth year of our Pontificate.

The pope was already trying to warn the flock to beware of the modernist teachings in 1907.
Read your quote from the 1910 encyclopedia, then read this snip, which is what the pope was warning us about in 1907.........................................Hence, Venerable Brethren, springs that ridiculous proposition of the Modernists, that every religion, according to the different aspect under which it is viewed, must be considered as both natural and supernatural. Hence it is that they make consciousness and revelation synonymous. Hence the law, according to which religious consciousness is given as the universal rule, to be put on an equal footing with revelation, and to which all must submit, even the supreme authority of the Church, whether in its teaching capacity, or in that of legislator in the province of sacred liturgy or discipline.

[Jehanne]

And, that's the point, isn't it?  Who decides such issues?  The SSPX?  This forum?  Or, the Roman Pontiff?  Who, ultimately, did the omnipotent God "leave in charge" to determine such things?  If Father Feeney received a Mass of Christian Burial and if at least some of his followers are in full communion with Rome with regularized status (unlike the SSPX), then who is anyone here or anyone anywhere (for that matter) to pass judgment on those whom the Church has not judged.

You act like that there can be nothing which falls into the realm of theological opinion.  If you believe in theological opinion, then please define that.

[parentsfortruth]

Such a red herring argument. The Church deals in absolutes, not "what ifs." People should know this by now. We know that the Church solemnly proclaimed "extra ecclesiam nullus salus." Well that means that whatever is over and above that is God's business. Stay out of it!

[Capt McQuigg]

Has "Feeneyism" been officially declared a heresy?

[Napoli]

Is this forum catholic? It is unless the modernists are posting. Which clearly they have done and will continue to do.

[Stephen Francis]

I was once playing basketball with a friend. I attempted a trick shot from a perch on the top of a schoolyard playground climbing structure.

I was approximately 30-40 feet away from the basket and about 80º off center to its left.

I heaved the basketball... it hit the top of the backboard, bounced once to the left side of the basket, then bounced at an odd angle towards the front of the basket. The ball then proceeded to bounce about 5 feet in front of the basket and then inexplicably dropped through the hoop.

Now, then. I was there, personally involved and saw the entire event take place.

Should I now go around telling everyone, even those who have never played basketball before, that it's not only possible, but easily explainable how, to repeat the nearly unbelievable feat?

YES, IT WAS POSSIBLE. I WAS THERE. But in NO sense was it normal.

There is only one way to properly learn the game, and it has nothing to do with leaning on isolated stories of the miraculous.

Leave the unbelievably rare and incredible stories for your casual conversation time. When it's time for serious thought and effort on behalf of lost souls, compete for salvation according to the rules, not the exceptions.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.

[For Greater Glory]

Lover of Truth,

Your post from the Catholic Encyclopedia seems a bit hazy or ambiguous. Here is a question and answer by Fr. Michael Mueller from the 2004 edition of Catholic Family News:

41. Will those heretics be saved, who are not guilty of the sin of heresy, and are faithful in living up to the dictate of their conscience?
Inculpable ignorance of the true religion excuses a heathen from the sin of infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy. But such ignorance has never been the means of salvation. From the fact that a person who lives up to the dictates of his conscience, and who cannot sin against the true religion on account of being ignorant of it, many have drawn the false conclusion that such a person is saved, or, in other words, is in the state of sanctifying grace, thus making ignorance a means of salvation or justification.

If we sincerely wish not to make great mistakes in explaining the great revealed truth, "Out of the Church there is no salvation," we must remember:
a) That there are four great truths2 of salvation, which everyone must know and believe in order to be saved;
b) That no one can go to heaven unless he is in the state of sanctifying grace;
c) That, in order to receive sanctifying grace, the soul must be prepared for it by divine Faith, Hope, Charity, true sorrow for sin with the firm purpose of doing all that God requires the soul to believe and to do, in order to be saved;
d) That this preparation of the soul cannot be brought by inculpable ignorance. And if such ignorance cannot even dispose the soul for receiving the grace of justification, it can much less give this grace to the soul. Inculpable ignorance has never been a means of grace or salvation, not even for the inculpably ignorant people that live up to their conscience. But of this class of ignorant persons we say, with Saint Thomas Aquinas, that God in His mercy will lead these souls to the knowledge of the necessary truths of salvation, even send them an angel, if necessary, to instruct them, rather than let them perish without their fault. If they accept  this grace, they will be saved as Catholics.  

           It's good to read what Pope Pius IX replied to calumnious reports of certain newspapers.
Also, Archbishop Hay has written in quite amount of detail on these matters.
In my mind, it is important to look into what the Church has said.

[For Greater Glory]

P. S. My catholic reasoning tells me that God would not be just to let my sincere Protestant family member, friend, or neighbor walk into heaven (as Father Young told us) while I have to struggle to live according to the catholic life, which is HARD! St. Thomas Aquinas said you must have the faith and we must believe that God will give the faith to one who truly desires it.

[MyrnaM]

 But of this class of ignorant persons we say, with Saint Thomas Aquinas, that God in His mercy will lead these souls to the knowledge of the necessary truths of salvation, even send them an angel, if necessary, to instruct them, rather than let them perish without their fault. If they accept  this grace, they will be saved as Catholics.  

           

To those who deny BOD, the above is all we are saying, even an Angel can administer the sacraments, look to the Angel of Portugal for proof.  

[reconquest]

LOT: stop beating this dead horse.

[MyrnaM]

Found this beautiful image of the Angel of Portugal
 bringing the sacrament.





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[Luker]

Lover of Truth, I down voted you for starting yet another thread on BOD/BOB or the feenyites and for implying that Cathinfo isn't a Catholic forum because we aren't piling into the 27 threads you have already started on these topics.  If Cathinfo isn't 'catholic' enough for you, you can always go somewhere else.

Luke