That's right, the conciliar church is not "The Church". So you should stop saying it is. The pope is not the Church either, neither is the hierarchy.
If the entire hierarchy can apostasise and lead the faithful to Hell without it being considered a defection, then the principle of indefectibility would be entirely meaningless. You won't find any theologian or authority suggesting such rot as the true hierarchy could ever lead souls to Hell.
Are you saying that you figured that we're in this mess via the use of your own wits? Do you not admit that you must have felt something was wrong and corresponded to graces that were offered to you? Do you think that God does not offer those same graces to every human creature? Certainly you agree that most people reject those graces - *those* are the ones who are content to go to hell while foolishly relying on the the popes authority to excuse them from their own sins.
I can't comment on what graces I've been given, only God knows. If the Trad position is correct, then yes NOers must be ignoring some of God's graces, as if one corresponds to all of God's graces He would never leave them wallow in error. But whether they are rejecting graces or not, it does not change the fact that the hierarchy is guiding them to Hell. Trads ignore the hierarchy for exactly this reason. The fact that man must listen to the hierarchy doesn't lessen the significance of what they are doing. It's like if a father teaches his child to sin, the child has free will to reject his father's errors, but that doesn't absolve the father of his guilt.
So you're without a pope for 60 years now - how much longer till you agree that you really have never needed a pope at all? 10 more years? 60 more years? 100 more years?
Why is it that you even need a pope?
Why is it that you even need a pope when you ignore him and everything he does anyway?
It's honestly baffling to me that you can agree that the hierarchy are leading souls to Hell and yet you don't think that poses any issue whatsoever with indefectibility. From the Catholic Encyclopedia once more:
By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard.
Sedevacantism would be a defection by loss of Apostolic hierarchy. R&R have
a hierarchy, but one that is
corrupted in faith and morals and has ceased to be a
school of holiness as it teaches heresy and sin instead of true dogma, as well as having an invalid and blasphemous mass replace the true mass in 99% of parishes. Even their pope was ordained in a false rite.
So it's clear that sedevacantism cannot explain the Crisis, but neither can R&R as that position still violates the principle of indefectibility.
Topic: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all? (Read 30181 times)