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Author Topic: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?  (Read 30430 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2019, 07:27:39 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on September 01, 2019, 06:27:31 AM
Seriously?  There's the core question of which is worse, a 60-year vacancy of the Holy See or a Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church that has gone completely off the rails and has been leading souls to hell for 60 years.  That's the chief fight between R&R and the sedevacantists.  R&R think the former is a worse problem for the Church's indefectibility, while the SVs think that the latter is the worse problem.  But both are absolutely a problem, and it takes a lot of arrogance to think that you're above it all.

It's a grave problem, as +Lefebvre puts it (he himself was perplexed):
But I guess that you've succeeded in solving this problem where +Lefebvre failed.
You put this well, but I don’t see it as a better or worse problem, rather an impossibility vs an enigma. 
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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2019, 07:34:34 AM »
Quote from: Admin on August 31, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Good-willed Catholics currently exist in many groups. Below are the arguments that WOULD JUSTIFY a Catholic of good will attending any of these groups. There are other arguments, and I don't have all day, but I'm giving a quick sample so you know what I mean:

Conservative Novus Ordo: "We must stay within the authority and framework of the Catholic Church. Obedience is important. Christ promised perpetual successors to St. Peter. I do my best to do and believe everything a Catholic should. I obey my priest, bishop, and Pope unless they are clearly in error, which some of them are at times."

FSSP: "What Conservative Novus Ordo said, but also the New Mass is defective and dangerous at least. We will play it safe and only say the Tridentine Mass and use the Rites that were used before Vatican II. Vatican II was extremely problematic at best. We will train our priests in separate seminaries so they get a fully Traditional or pre-Vatican II formation. We're OK with the new Rites of consecration and ordination, however."

SSPX: "What FSSP said."  <----- Note how useless the SSPX is now, but I digress!

Resistance: "Vatican II is heretical and destructive of souls, and we have 50 years of evidence to prove it. We should stay away from the Modernist contagion, lest we ourselves become infected. It is permitted to disobey a Pope when he steps outside his authority. God expects us to save our souls, and we need the Sacraments to do so. We have the right to cling to the Catholic Faith as it was always taught. We don't need the Pope or anyone else to give us permission to stay Catholic. But we can keep the Faith and pre-Vatican II religion without denying the papacy of the current Pope. Besides, the Pope has been validly elected and universally accepted by the Catholic Church. Also, the idea of a 60 year interregnum (period between popes) is ludicrous."

Sedevacantists: "What Resistance said, except the stuff about the Pope. The Catholic Church can't promulgate a Mass noxious to souls. And what's the point of Our Lord's promise to St. Peter if his successor could actually be harmful to, and dismantle, the Catholic Church? The last several Popes aren't even Catholic, therefore they can't be heads of the Catholic Church. They are heretics. We know heresy when we see it."

Home Aloners: "I stopped going to Mass after 1970 when the Catholic Church embraced Modernism and error. Yes I've heard about so-called "Traditional Catholics" here and there, but they have no authority from the Pope to operate independent churches. They have no authority to say Mass, much less hear confessions or witness marriages. These groups are like cut-off branches not connected to the main tree, which means they are dead. You can't get life (grace) from dead branches. So I stay at home with my Rosary, and live like the Japanese "hidden Christians" praying for God to end this chastisement."
Good summary.
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Offline Admin

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2019, 09:10:47 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on September 01, 2019, 06:30:45 AM
I sincerely believe that the following happend --

Masons/Communists/Modernists had been infiltrating the hierarchy for decades and even centuries prior to Vatican II.  In the 1958 Conclave, Cardinal Siri was elected, but the Communists/Masons forced him to step down.  Then they installed their agent Roncalli in his place, the "uncanonically elected" pope described by a prophesy of St. Francis.  Once the smoking gun proof for this comes to light, then we'll have our ring.

Then the Church will need to revisit the ecclesiological debates between R&R and the sedevacantists and settle those disputes as a matter of principle.

Obviously my best guess with the limited information I have (which is not exactly powerful, being only a guess) is that the One Ring has Latin text which glows when you cast it into a fire, which says something about R&R being correct. Or else I wouldn't be supporting that group.

Nevertheless, it's impossible to say what the One Ring says/looks like, since it's currently at the bottom of some river or in some hidden place of the world, possibly not even on earth. So I have no evidence or reason to reject or deny that you could be right.

God will either have to guide someone's hand to find it, or bring it to us Himself. (possibly by the hands of His Blessed Mother)

That person could be humble like a hobbit or one of the River Folk (e.g., Smeagol) -- that is to say a layman or Religious of low rank, or it could be a king, prince, theologian, or prelate. But as I said in my posts above, it's going to take something special. God will have to be involved in SOME way. A lot of human thought and effort has been given to the Crisis over the last 50 years, a lot of ink has been spilled, and yet still Tradition is divided with men of good will on ALL sides. I won't say equally divided among the groups, but there are at least confused men of good will to be found in each of the conflicting groups.
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Offline Admin

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2019, 09:11:37 AM »
To refresh your memory about what the One Ring is:


At this point I should point out, the analogy isn't perfect, since we're talking about a super evil ring, basically forged by the equivalent of lucifer in Tolkien's fantasy world. "Omnis comparatio claudicat nisi in puncto comparationis." Every comparison limps, except in the point of comparison.

The parts of the analogy I'm seeking to use: the fact that no one can withstand the power of the ring, when the master of the ring is wielding it. The only option is to go along with what it's making you do, or die (go into mortal sin, become of bad will, willfully reject or ignore the truth).

Even the "lesser rings" work in my analogy:

Each of the Trad groups has one (or more!) of these lesser rings, which compel men to follow them (by force of their arguments). The Ring of Papal Authority is one such ring, currently wielded by Conservative Novus Ordo. The Ring of Papal Authority and Tradition is wielded by the FSSP. And so on. The SSPX recently lost its ring, but they seek the Ring of Papal Authority and Tradition. There are lesser rings based on individuals too: the Ring of Archbishop Lefebvre. Treachery caused it to be lost to the SSPX, and now ever since then the Resistance and the SSPX are both dredging rivers as we speak to find this Ring. In the meantime, SSPX and ex-SSPX Catholics are left to their own prudence to decide which group +ABL would support today (SSPX or Resistance). So you see, the power dynamics change over time as Ring ownership changes.

Maybe there are some 3rd level rings, the least and weakest of them, which actually exist in multiple copies! So then we could have "The Ring of the Tridentine Mass" because several groups are using that Ring today to influence and bring in supporters.

But just as in LOTR, if the One Ring entered the scene, it would be all over. The One Ring contains the powers of, and controls, all the others.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is there a One Ring in Tradition, to rule them all?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2019, 10:27:01 AM »
The Unifying factor of Tradition is the Faith.  It is the True Mass.  It is Orthodoxy, the Rosary and penance.  
.
All these other ridiculous debates (sedevacantism vs R&R, 1 Baptism vs 3) are distractions.  It’s as if the devil (ie Sauron) has tricked the Fellowship committee - to argue about how to defeat all the various orc armies and to debate which cities to defend the most - instead of them concentrating on the only thing that matters - destroying the ring (ie V2 and modernism).  Destroying the ring is all that matters.  Doing this and you destroy all the orcs and you keep all cities safe.  But most Trads have lost sight of the main problem.  And the blame is on the Fellowship committee alone (ie Trad Bishops/priests) who bicker endlessly.  
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