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Author Topic: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?  (Read 7536 times)

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Offline Nadir

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Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2022, 10:25:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:36:08 PM
    Correct.

    Which is why I suggested talking to a traditional priest you trust.  And if you have pre-VII grounds for annulment, then you can apply for an annulment under post-VII grounds.  They may or may not be the same grounds.  God knows your intention.

    If you do not have pre-VII grounds, stop and try to fix the marriage.
    Did you even read the OP?
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #106 on: May 16, 2022, 10:59:16 PM »
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    • .... delete
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #107 on: May 17, 2022, 09:02:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on May 16, 2022, 10:25:57 PM
    Did you even read the OP?
    Yes, dear....
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #108 on: May 17, 2022, 07:52:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:50:26 PM
    Are you saying that a sede priest has authority to nullify a marriage?

    No cleric in all of Traddieland has any authority, nor any meaningful canonical standing/status of any kind.
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    Offline FlosCarmeli13

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #109 on: May 18, 2022, 07:09:28 PM »
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    • St Jerome

    Letter 55

    ''And in another place: the wife is bound by the law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:39 The apostle has thus cut away every plea and has clearly declared that, if a woman marries again while her husband is living, she is an adulteress. 

    You must not speak to me of the violence of a ravisher, a mother's pleading, a father's bidding, the influence of relatives, the insolence and the intrigues of servants, household losses. A husband may be an adulterer or a sodomite, he may be stained with every crime and may have been left by his wife because of his sins; yet he is still her husband and, so long as he lives, she may not marry another. The apostle does not promulgate this decree on his own authority but on that of Christ who speaks in him. ''

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001055.htm
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #110 on: May 19, 2022, 10:25:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: FlosCarmeli13 on May 18, 2022, 07:09:28 PM
    St Jerome

    Letter 55

    ''And in another place: the wife is bound by the law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:39 The apostle has thus cut away every plea and has clearly declared that, if a woman marries again while her husband is living, she is an adulteress.

    You must not speak to me of the violence of a ravisher, a mother's pleading, a father's bidding, the influence of relatives, the insolence and the intrigues of servants, household losses. A husband may be an adulterer or a sodomite, he may be stained with every crime and may have been left by his wife because of his sins; yet he is still her husband and, so long as he lives, she may not marry another. The apostle does not promulgate this decree on his own authority but on that of Christ who speaks in him. ''

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001055.htm
    1 Corinthians 7:15
    [15] But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace.

    Matthew 5:31-32
    [31] And it hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. [32] But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. 

    Matthew 19:9
    [9] And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

    The following is often brought up as evidence that annulments are not allowed:
    Matthew 19:6
    [6]     Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 

    We must remember that the Pope is not a man, but the Vicar of Christ on Earth:
    Matthew 18:8
    [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #111 on: May 19, 2022, 10:43:36 AM »
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    • Epiphany, do you even know what an annulment is?  It's a decision that THERE WAS NEVER A MARRIAGE AT ALL.  All of your Scripture quotes have to do with divorce, which presumes there was a marriage.  An annulment is not the same thing as a divorce.

    It is heresy to suggest that a pope can "loose" a marriage.  No one can, because it is a vow made between the spouses and God.  The Church can only investigate/decide that a marriage was null/void and never happened to begin with.  The Church, in deciding an annulment, is not "loosing" anything because it was never "bound" to begin with.

    The Scripture quotes you posted can be applied to Catholics and "civil divorce/separation" but that means that a marriage actually took place.  And catholic doctrine does not allow re-marriage.  No exceptions.  Catholics aren't even allowed to civilly divorce/separate except for extreme circuмstances, and with permission from the clergy (in preV2 times).  But they aren't free to re-marry; they are just free from the bad situation and must live as a single person until (or if) the civil divorce/separation can be mended.

    (In the case of death of a spouse, since a widow/widower is no longer married, then it's actually an error/confusion to use the term "re-married".  If they get married again, it's a brand new marriage, with brand new vows).  It is protestant heresy to say that catholics can get re-married because a former spouse committed adultery.
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #112 on: May 19, 2022, 10:49:34 AM »
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    • I think this might be of help to you Epiphany:

    Annulment vs. Divorce

    A divorce is the dissolving of a lawful civil marriage by the state. The granting of a divorce, in and of itself, is an acknowledgment that there was a marriage in the first place from which a divorce could be granted.

    An annulment, however, is not the dissolving of a marriage at all, rather it is a ruling from the Church that there was never a marriage in the first place, i.e., some impediment(s) prevented the marriage from ever taking place – it never happened. The putative married couples were simply cohabitating the whole while and the annulled couples are free to marry “for the first time” if they so choose.


    Pax is correct
    Quote
    It is heresy to suggest that a pope can "loose" a marriage.  No one can, because it is a vow made between the spouses and God.  The Church can only investigate/decide that a marriage was null/void and never happened to begin with.  The Church, in deciding an annulment, is not "loosing" anything because it was never "bound" to begin with.
    A good historical example to study is Henry VIII.
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #113 on: May 19, 2022, 11:29:47 AM »
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    • Downthumbing isn't going to change the truth. Maybe come back when you grow up.
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    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #114 on: May 19, 2022, 11:54:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 19, 2022, 10:43:36 AM

    It is heresy to suggest that a pope can "loose" a marriage.  No one can, because it is a vow made between the spouses and God.  The Church can only investigate/decide that a marriage was null/void and never happened to begin with.  The Church, in deciding an annulment, is not "loosing" anything because it was never "bound" to begin with.
    Not heresy.  In fact, truth.
    https://www.catholicbible101.com/annulments.htm

    I don't have time or energy to look up more sites for you.  Sorry.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #115 on: May 19, 2022, 11:54:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on May 19, 2022, 10:49:34 AM
    I think this might be of help to you Epiphany:

    Annulment vs. Divorce

    A divorce is the dissolving of a lawful civil marriage by the state. The granting of a divorce, in and of itself, is an acknowledgment that there was a marriage in the first place from which a divorce could be granted.

    An annulment, however, is not the dissolving of a marriage at all, rather it is a ruling from the Church that there was never a marriage in the first place, i.e., some impediment(s) prevented the marriage from ever taking place – it never happened. The putative married couples were simply cohabitating the whole while and the annulled couples are free to marry “for the first time” if they so choose.


    Pax is correctA good historical example to study is Henry VIII.
    I know the difference.
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #116 on: May 19, 2022, 12:33:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on May 19, 2022, 11:54:51 AM
    I know the difference.
    It doesn't appear that you do.
    If a couple are actually married, no one, save God or death, can dissolve it, not even the Pope (thus why I recommended looking at Henry VIII).

    A finding of nullity by the Church is a declaration that there was something, at the time of the exchange of vows, that impeded the ability of one or both of the parties to enter into the marriage contract.

    Something that needs to also be said is that the declaration of nullity is NOT infallible. The legitimate purpose for examining a marriage is so that people of good will can have MORAL certitude about their marital status. If they are not of good will and are just "playing the system" to get their declaration, no "power to loose" is going to save them (excepting, of course, they make a valid confession and are absolved). Now a declaration of nullity (DoN) is binding, that is clergy are bound to accept the finding, even if they themselves have doubts about it. Obviously, in the present situation, not many trust anything that comes out of Rome or the diocesan tribunals, which is why trad clergy often do not feel bound by a DoN, and want to examine the case themselves.


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    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline FlosCarmeli13

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #117 on: May 19, 2022, 12:54:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:36:08 PM
     And if you have pre-VII grounds for annulment, then you can apply for an annulment under post-VII grounds.  They may or may not be the same grounds.  God knows your intention.
    Just wondering, epiphany, are you really suggesting that one should lie in order to get an annulment?  If one has a pre-VII (traditional) ground for an annulment why would one use a post-VII ground that is different?  Why use a false ground?

    The end does not justify the means.  



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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #118 on: May 19, 2022, 01:18:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: FlosCarmeli13 on May 19, 2022, 12:54:44 PM
    Just wondering, epiphany, are you really suggesting that one should lie in order to get an annulment? 

    If one has a pre-VII (traditional) ground for an annulment why would one use a post-VII ground that is different? 

    Why use a false ground?

    No, I am not suggesting anyone lie.

     I suggested is that it may be possible someone qualifies under pre-VII grounds and post-VII grounds which may be different.

    I did not suggest in any way to use false grounds.
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    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #119 on: May 19, 2022, 01:31:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on May 19, 2022, 12:33:30 PM
    It doesn't appear that you do.
    If a couple are actually married, no one, save God or death, can dissolve it, not even the Pope (thus why I recommended looking at Henry VIII).

    A finding of nullity by the Church is a declaration that there was something, at the time of the exchange of vows, that impeded the ability of one or both of the parties to enter into the marriage contract.

    Something that needs to also be said is that the declaration of nullity is NOT infallible. The legitimate purpose for examining a marriage is so that people of good will can have MORAL certitude about their marital status. If they are not of good will and are just "playing the system" to get their declaration, no "power to loose" is going to save them (excepting, of course, they make a valid confession and are absolved). Now a declaration of nullity (DoN) is binding, that is clergy are bound to accept the finding, even if they themselves have doubts about it. Obviously, in the present situation, not many trust anything that comes out of Rome or the diocesan tribunals, which is why trad clergy often do not feel bound by a DoN, and want to examine the case themselves.
    https://www.catholicbible101.com/annulments.htm
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