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Author Topic: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?  (Read 4599 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #90 on: May 16, 2022, 12:37:06 PM »
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  • Yes, a traditional person would have to go through the diocesan process for an annulment because such authority lies only with Rome.  There is no other way.

    However, if a trad rejects VII he would not be hypocritical getting an annulment, because VII did not annul the structure of the Catholic Church.
    They would be subject to Vll canons

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #91 on: May 16, 2022, 01:27:02 PM »
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  • In the present situation it's highly debatable just who could make a binding decision regarding nullity. Marriage law itself is large and complex (here's the canons regarding marriage from CIC1917, with commentary, over 400 pages https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary/page/1/mode/1up).
    I think, at the present time, unless it is a very clear-cut case, the safest course is to presume validity.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #92 on: May 16, 2022, 03:36:57 PM »
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  • In the present situation it's highly debatable just who could make a binding decision regarding nullity. Marriage law itself is large and complex (here's the canons regarding marriage from CIC1917, with commentary, over 400 pages https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary/page/1/mode/1up).
    I think, at the present time, unless it is a very clear-cut case, the safest course is to presume validity.
    Thank you Emile. I looked up Canon 1098 in the commentary you linked here, and what it says about canon 1098 that Epiphany quoted is completely different from what he said.

    Quote
    Error is a state of mind in which one mistakes one thing or person for another, as for instance, when we think A is B or a crowbar is a poker. In the first-mentioned case we have what is called error about the person. Now since marriage is effected by the consent of the contracting parties, and the will can desire nothing except what is proposed to it by the intellect, it is evident that such a mistake affects the very substance of the matrimonial consent. Gratian sets forth the example of Lia and Rachel, but his solution is rather quaint. He could have simply answered that an error about the substance of the contract nullifies the consent. It would be an error about the person if James married Olga, when he intended to marry her sister Gemma. Such errors are rare because it is seldom that two sisters resemble each other so closely that they can hardly be distinguished.


    So an error about a person means thinking one person is someone else, not a quality about the person as Epiphany tried to argue. But in case it wasn't clear enough, this theologian explicitly lays this out:

    Quote
    Error about the qualities of the other party is of more frequent occurrence. However, here a distinction must be made. It may be that the quality concerning which one is in error affects the person merely in an accidental way. For instance, Joseph Buro, a citizen of Bruxelles, who went by the name of Buro de Chancartier, married a baroness of Leyden, by name of Theresa Kraus, a rich widow. She protested at the trial that she would never have married Buro had she known that he was not of the nobility. This was a purely accidental quality, and no error that reflected directly or indirectly on the person, and therefore the marriage was declared valid. From this is may be seen that a mistake about an accidental quality (wealth, intelligence, domestic habits, peaceful disposition, health, even concealed pregnancy by another man, etc.) does not alter the substance of the marriage-object, which is the person itself.


    This should answer the questions that several other people have asked, about whether lies or concealment about adultery, pregnancy, drug addiction, or other major problems invalidates a marriage, and according to pre-Vatican 2 commentaries they do not. This is even a case of someone who lied in claiming to belong to the nobility in order to marry a rich noblewoman, and Rome said the marriage was valid, even though the noblewoman would never have married that man if she had known he was a commoner.



    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #93 on: May 16, 2022, 04:20:05 PM »
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  • This is correct.  The power lies with Rome but Rome can grant authority for such to the diocesan level just like a bishop can grant authority for a priest to perform a confirmation.
    Thanks.  I judged myself horribly lazy for not delving deeper, but 30 pages of Woywod isn't a walk in the park, the hour was late, and I had to do a late-night study session with my son, to shepherd him through a difficult homeschool math test that was due today.

    Incidentally, he got an 83% B.  Not bad considering that I grade fairly severely, as was the practice in less politically-correct times when a "C" meant "average" and students were glad to get one.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #94 on: May 16, 2022, 06:56:23 PM »
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  • So an error about a person means thinking one person is someone else, not a quality about the person as Epiphany tried to argue. But in case it wasn't clear enough, this theologian explicitly lays this out:

    I think it could be any deception that changes the quality of the person and speaks to their intent to be married.  So, for example, a case I ran into is a guy who got married who had been a sodomite ... and then returned to sodomy shortly after his "marriage".


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #95 on: May 16, 2022, 07:10:46 PM »
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  • I think it could be any deception that changes the quality of the person and speaks to their intent to be married.  So, for example, a case I ran into is a guy who got married who had been a sodomite ... and then returned to sodomy shortly after his "marriage".
    Did you read the quote from above? Also, a few pages back I posted several long quotes from a pre-Vatican 2 theologian addressing these objections, and the third quote I give answers what you are saying here, that no, this does not render the marriage invalid.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #96 on: May 16, 2022, 07:21:10 PM »
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  • I think it could be any deception that changes the quality of the person and speaks to their intent to be married.  So, for example, a case I ran into is a guy who got married who had been a sodomite ... and then returned to sodomy shortly after his "marriage".
    Do you know if he intended to return to sodomy, or did he intend, when he made his vows, to be faithful to his spouse? Intention is the crux of it.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #97 on: May 16, 2022, 07:49:11 PM »
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  • Do you know if he intended to return to sodomy, or did he intend, when he made his vows, to be faithful to his spouse? Intention is the crux of it.
    Okay, looks like I'll have to post this again:



    Quote
    The internal consent of the mind is always presumed to be in conformity with the words or signs used in the contracting of marriage. Simulated or feigned consent is present in marriage when, although exteriorly, the words expressing matrimonial consent are duly and seriously pronounced, one or both parties withhold internal consent .The intention of the pretender may be not to contract marriage, or to contract it but not to assume its obligation, or not to fulfill its obligation. An intention not to contract marriage excludes consent and nullifies the contract. Likewise, the intention not to assume the obligation of marriage, since without it there cannot be true matrimonial consent. The intention not to fulfill the matrimonial obligation does not invalidate consent, as this does not pertain to the essence of the contract. The intention to violate an obligation can exist with the intention to assume the obligation itself.

    Does this answer your question? This is from a pre-Vatican 2 treatise on theology.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #98 on: May 16, 2022, 08:30:25 PM »
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  • Quote
    The intention not to contract marriage excludes consent and nullifies the contract.
    So that is why I said
    Do you know if he intended to return to sodomy, or did he intend, when he made his vows, to be faithful to his spouse? Intention is the crux of it.
    I know the teachings before vat 2. I was raised on them.
    My question was addressed in response to Lad’s.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #99 on: May 16, 2022, 09:17:03 PM »
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  • Did you read the quote from above? Also, a few pages back I posted several long quotes from a pre-Vatican 2 theologian addressing these objections, and the third quote I give answers what you are saying here, that no, this does not render the marriage invalid.

    Of course, but the question is whether something like being a sodomite (not just having committed the act) is not necessarily accidental, but more substantial or essential.  I've seen it argued that it's an essential issue because it relates directly to the marital debt.  I find the argument that a chronic sodomite (thus inclined) is a deception that's essential vs. accidental to be rather convincing.  For someone to have been a chronic fornicator with the opposite sex is in an entirely different category.  In either case, except in the case of obvious legal issues (like established fact of prior marriage) or something obvious, the Conciliar hierarchy simply cannot be trusted to render a Catholic verdict.

    I also disagree with the quotes that some kind of internal withholding of consent can invalidate the marriage.  By pronouncing the vows you intend to do what the Church is expecting and the marriage is contracted.  More nonsense about "internal consent" misinterpreted there (a common problem with pre-V2 theology).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #100 on: May 16, 2022, 09:22:17 PM »
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  • Okay, looks like I'll have to post this again:

    Does this answer your question? This is from a pre-Vatican 2 treatise on theology.

    Oh, get off the high horse.  This isn't the only pre-Vatican II source, and some things were debated even before V2.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #101 on: May 16, 2022, 09:23:24 PM »
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  • Sodomy isn't merely a sin or a behavior, it's a perversion against nature that could be said to entail an essential error regarding the nature of the person being wedded.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #102 on: May 16, 2022, 09:26:30 PM »
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  • I just noticed that this is how Epiphany defines "traditional priest".  Since he's advocating for rome annulments, I assume he's not a sedevacantist, which leaves only the "indult" priests (if they are actually priests) as traditional (and they aren't traditional).


    Just so everyone knows that ephiphany is an indult novus ordo type.  That's why he's arguing for the new code.
    Wrong again, my friend.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #103 on: May 16, 2022, 09:36:08 PM »
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  • They would be subject to Vll canons
    Correct.

    Which is why I suggested talking to a traditional priest you trust.  And if you have pre-VII grounds for annulment, then you can apply for an annulment under post-VII grounds.  They may or may not be the same grounds.  God knows your intention.

    If you do not have pre-VII grounds, stop and try to fix the marriage.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #104 on: May 16, 2022, 09:50:26 PM »
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  • I just noticed that this is how Epiphany defines "traditional priest".  Since he's advocating for rome annulments, I assume he's not a sedevacantist, which leaves only the "indult" priests (if they are actually priests) as traditional (and they aren't traditional).


    Just so everyone knows that ephiphany is an indult novus ordo type.  That's why he's arguing for the new code.
    "Advocating for rome"?  Are you saying that a sede priest has authority to nullify a marriage?