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Author Topic: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?  (Read 25215 times)

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Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2022, 06:15:44 AM »
going to a strip club with his groomsmen and getting a lap dance the night before the wedding?
Matthew commented, answering in the negative, to which Epiphany responded after comments by others, with
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow. 

I responded with
The sinfulness of the spouse does not invalidate a marriage.
Now I am no theologian but if sins committed (in this case a serious lie) before marriage could invalidate the marriage, then who could possibly be validly married? 

Your question, Josefa, is referring to dishonesty at the very moment of the vow making, which I can’t answer. That is for a qualified person to decide.

Did you mean Pauline principle or Pauline privilege? I don’t know what the former is.

Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2022, 06:20:31 AM »
It seems to me that, given only a few hundred annulments were handed out by the Church prior to Vatican II, a VERY large percentage of married couples didn't live their married lives even considering annulment as an option.  Therefore, Trad couples who don't believe the post Vatican II hierarchy gives out true annulments/has authority would then live the same way.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2022, 06:44:32 AM »
The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements.

Yes, someone has argued that there are in fact more null marriages out there today than before Vatican II, precisely because of poor preparation and that the couples have the mentality of either 1) if this doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce (annulment) and 2) not wanting to have children (going in deciding you're going to contracept).  Certainly the NO preparation for marriage is deplorable and there are tons of people married in the NO with these attitudes.  If I were a Traditional priest, preparing a couple for marriage, I would require that they sign a docuмent assenting to all the conditions for a valid marriage.

But on these grounds, which speak to a person's intent at the time of marriage, I would still refuse to grant an annulment.  How difficult would it be for someone to simply claim "yeah, I never wanted to have children" after they decide that they don't want to be married to their spouse anymore?  I knew a guy in the NO who got an annulment after 20 years of marriage, several children ... and the wife worked for the parish office (so they were rather "dedicated" NO Catholics).  And the guy could just get his buddy to come testify, "yeah, when I knew him he told me he didn't want any kids."  My feeling is, if you didn't know, you should have, and that's culpable ignorance on your part.  Go talk to the NO priest who prepared you for marriage.  Annulment denied.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2022, 07:01:51 AM »
Sinful behavior at the time of marriage (or just before or after marriage) MIGHT speak to some intent or it might not, so by itself it means nothing.  People sin all the time despite on one level not "wanting" to sin.

What is key is not behavior but the disposition of the will.  Such a thing might be adduced before a marriage tribunal as one piece of evidence (much more would be required) of no intent to be married, but there are quite a few degenerates these days who have the attitude that they're going to have one last fling before marriage because they are forced to settle down.  In fact, they have the fling with the thought that they'll be prevented (by marriage) from being able to indulge in such things ... which is an implicit acknowledgment of the intent to remain faithful during marriage.  Anything short of clearcut legal things like prior marriage is very nebulous, and the NO can't be trusted as far as 450-lb. Father Bob can be thrown to properly adjudicate an annulment, given their track-record of declaring annulments on the flimsiest grounds.

Nevertheless, my attitude now is that given the vacuum of authority, I can't impose my judgments or conscience on anyone else.  I've known (even Traditional) couples who had gotten annulments and got married again, and I basically treat them as if they were a legitimate couple.  If I were a priest, I would not refuse them the Sacraments.  I would advise them that they are at great risk of losing their souls, but that's as far as my role as non-pastor would go.

Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2022, 11:14:58 AM »
Only if it can be PROVED that is was a lie AT THE TIME the vow was taken. 
Correct.