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Author Topic: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?  (Read 7537 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2022, 12:58:50 PM »
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    Being unfaithful in marriage is grounds, if the party was unfaithful before marriage and knew he/she would be unfaithful after.  

    Same goes for abuse.  If a person had a bad temper and abused other women before marriage and didn't tell either the new wife or the priest before marriage, invalidates the marriage.

    Not telling the spouse, before marriage, that they didn't want or couldn't have children is another valid reason.

    Basicably, any serious lie before marriage invalidates the vow.
    The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements. 


    All the other arguments you mention (cheating/abuse) do not invalidate a marriage.  They would be grounds for separation/civil divorce, but not invalidating.  


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #16 on: May 14, 2022, 01:09:40 PM »
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  • The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements.


    All the other arguments you mention (cheating/abuse) do not invalidate a marriage.  They would be grounds for separation/civil divorce, but not invalidating. 

    Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #17 on: May 14, 2022, 01:31:06 PM »
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  • The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements.


    All the other arguments you mention (cheating/abuse) do not invalidate a marriage.  They would be grounds for separation/civil divorce, but not invalidating. 

    Told, yes, agree with, not necessarily.  A malevolent prospective spouse could just sit there and be silent, keeping their intentions to themselves.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #18 on: May 14, 2022, 01:32:19 PM »
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  • Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.
    Irregardless of the reason one may think he would qualify for an annulment, the only place to start is to speak with a real priest.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #19 on: May 14, 2022, 01:33:31 PM »
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  • Told, yes, agree with, not necessarily.  A malevolent prospective spouse could just sit there and be silent, keeping their intentions to themselves.
    As with all sacraments, matrimony is an outward sign.  Keeping intentions entirely secret would not invalidate the sacrament.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #20 on: May 14, 2022, 01:36:41 PM »
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  • Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.

    I would be interested to know just how serious the lie has to be, to make the marriage invalid.  A mistake of person --- in an arranged marriage, where you have not seen the spouse before the wedding day, or just met them shortly before, and an imposter is inserted where you were fooled as to who the person is (but could that ever happen in the modern world?) --- yes, being misled about the character and life history of the person, again, I'd be interested to know where that line is drawn.

    Having married someone who turns out to have been a serial killer before the wedding, and you were of the mindset, even if you'd never given it any thought (as you had no reason to suspect your spouse of such a thing), that "I would never marry anyone who had been a serial killer", that would probably hold up.  Having served 30 days in jail for shoplifting (for instance), that's a whole other thing.  (And it might be worth noting that, in either case, no lie had been told, nobody asked the crooked spouse "have you ever been a serial killer?" or even "have you ever shoplifted and served time in the county jail on account of it?".)

    Thoughts from the forum?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #21 on: May 14, 2022, 01:48:09 PM »
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  • Here's the hard pill to swallow, which has caused many to leave the Catholic Faith (see John chapter 6 -- apparent disciples left Our Lord and "walked with Him no more" because "this saying is hard, and who can hear it?")

    A bad marriage, or a miserable marriage, or a lonely marriage, is not something you can dissolve or make disappear with the wave of a magic wand. Even the Church can't "help you" here.

    One partner forcing the other into a sexless marriage for example. As long as the marriage was consummated, especially if you have one or more children, then the right intentions were assumed to be there at the outset.

    Things falling apart, things going bad, spouses growing apart, one/both spouses becoming miserable -- none of those things mean a marriage never took place. They only mean a marriage has gone horribly wrong, you have a BAD marriage, but a marriage nonetheless.

    Remember, an annulment is NOT Catholic divorce! There are many reasons non-Catholic couples get divorced -- each divorced couple sought to dissolve or break up a "bad marriage", a marriage where things went wrong, and one/both spouses are unhappy. Usually so they can try again for "happiness" with someone else.

    We must not confuse these two concepts!

    Often one or both spouses enter into a marriage with vague expectations of the future, that they never voice or barely know about themselves. For example, how much they expect to be earning in 10 or 30 years. What married life will be like. How many children they will have. Precisely what will be required of them, in raising their children. What challenges they will face. What kind of status the man will have in 20, 30 years. What retirement will look like. And so on. There might be differences in EACH OF THESE THINGS if you could somehow X-ray each spouse and look into their deepest thoughts. But such a thing isn't possible. These discrepancies are the seeds of future disagreements and problems. But they don't invalidate a marriage.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #22 on: May 14, 2022, 01:49:13 PM »
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  • How about if a husband planned to get an annulment if the marriage didn't work out?

    or

     going to a strip club with his groomsmen and getting a lap dance the night before the wedding?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #23 on: May 14, 2022, 01:54:49 PM »
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  • A) How about if a husband planned to get an annulment if the marriage didn't work out?

    or

    B) going to a strip club with his groomsmen and getting a lap dance the night before the wedding?

    A) If you could prove it, it would invalidate the marriage contract, since marriage is necessarily exclusive, indissoluble, and for life. That's why most priests won't participate in a wedding unless the couple attends some kind of marriage preparation classes, where they learn that "marriage is for life, to one person" and other important things.

    B) It would mean he's starting his marriage out on the wrong foot, in mortal sin, and I see a bad marriage coming -- but I don't see how any mortal sin, even of the flesh, would invalidate a marriage. It would have to be a sin which *affects the nature of marriage itself*, such as threatening the priest with death unless he marries them, lying about who you are, hiding the fact you had yourself sterilized, etc.

    Again, a down-to-earth, vague "OOOOOh, That's just WROOOOONG, sista!" is not the same thing as something that invalidates entering into a valid marriage contract. We have to reason with our HEADS, not with our hearts.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #24 on: May 14, 2022, 02:18:18 PM »
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  • A) If you could prove it, it would invalidate the marriage contract, since marriage is necessarily exclusive, indissoluble, and for life. That's why most priests won't participate in a wedding unless the couple attends some kind of marriage preparation classes, where they learn that "marriage is for life, to one person" and other important things.

    B) It would mean he's starting his marriage out on the wrong foot, in mortal sin, and I see a bad marriage coming -- but I don't see how any mortal sin, even of the flesh, would invalidate a marriage. It would have to be a sin which *affects the nature of marriage itself*, such as threatening the priest with death unless he marries them, lying about who you are, hiding the fact you had yourself sterilized, etc.

    Again, a down-to-earth, vague "OOOOOh, That's just WROOOOONG, sista!" is not the same thing as something that invalidates entering into a valid marriage contract. We have to reason with our HEADS, not with our hearts.
    Thanks for your response.  I wonder...

    It seems that most Concilliar Catholics have the belief that they can always just get an annulment.  That's quite the Catch 22. 

    With regards to sins of the flesh, doesn't that indicate that he didn't plan on being faithful to one woman?

    Are your thoughts based on Canon Law or other sources?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #25 on: May 14, 2022, 03:05:28 PM »
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  • I think any lack of full mental capacity at the time of the initiation of the marriage , like drug abuse, alcoholism schitzophrenia etc is a possible cause for a true annulment.  Some actually say immaturity is a reason ,but that would have to be really severe, as far as I can fathom.
    Any coercion, like a shot-gun wedding, where someone does not have full intent of the will can be a reason.
    The intention to not want children, or to limit children which was not revealed to the intended spouse before the marriage is a cause also.
    Along with sɛҳuąƖ relations/affairs with others at the time of the marriage unknown to the potential spouse and or bigamy obviously is a reason.
    Every reason had to be present at the time of the wedding- most anything happening afterwards is not annullable.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #26 on: May 14, 2022, 05:55:57 PM »
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  • Two examples from real life:- 
    The man has a mistress from several years before meeting his wife to be.  He already has a child with her and she is six months pregnant with his second child at the time of his wedding.  His wife and her family know nothing of it.  They remain married for six years, have two children and are expecting a third when he blows his cover by an unwise financial move.  The mistress knew about it the entire time and was “okay” with it! She was baptized Catholic and he was baptized Lutheran who agreed to raising the kids Catholic, etc.  They got a dispensation. He even went to Mass when he wasn’t “working.”  
    Isn’t deliberate deception of a serious nature a legitimate reason for annulment?

    A dating couple, both Catholic, discuss marriage. He wants to get engaged, but she’s not sure.  The reason is because she’s been seeing someone else, unbeknownst to him.  They let things go on too long, and she sleeps with the side-lover, becoming pregnant.  He’s not neither Catholic nor a marriage prospect.  When he finds out, he offers an illegal abortion or farewell. She takes the farewell, and then seduces the other man to sin. After thus sinning a number of times, she tells she’s pregnant.  Wanting to do the honorable thing and make it right, they get engaged, go to confession, and have a small Catholic marriage ceremony. The baby girl looks very much like her mother, and as she grows, several distant relatives who knew of her former boyfriend begin talking.  The child begins to resemble the ex-boyfriend and not her father at all.  The marriage isn’t going well.  She says she doesn’t want any more children, and she eventually requests a divorce.  He is most upset, having been trying to be a good Catholic father and husband.  But finally she leaves him for another man and is soon carrying his baby.  They get a civil divorce leaving the girl in his custody.  He gets drafted and custody goes to the mother when he’s deployed to Vietnam. He ends up in country for seven years.  When he returns, his daughter doesn’t know him, doesn’t want to know him.  He spends the next five years being reviled by the general public as happened to most Vietnam vets.  He’s got PTSD, turns to drinking and drugs, but finally, his mother’s prayers are answered.  He gets help, moves in with his brother’s family and his mother, goes back to Church, finds work in construction. He meets a widow with four sons, one still in high school.  She’s Catholic, too.  He knows his ex is still alive, so he says he can’t marry.  She convinces him to request an annulment.  Not surprisingly, he’s granted one by the now VII church.  Still, he doesn’t feel quite right about it.  Again, it’s Mom who has the idea.  She remembers the talk from years before. It takes two years to convince his daughter to consent to a DNA test.  Sure enough, there is no way the two are related. Although not her fault, the daughter is furious and sues her “father” and “grandmother” for defamation, deception, emotional distress, etc.  They lost all but one aspect of the case.  They had a full Church wedding, etc.  About 10 years ago they began attending an Indult Mass, and after it’s relocation at a distance, looked into Mass at an SSPV chapel. When shown the annulment certificate, along with the DNA test, and told the entire story, they’re still barred from receiving the Sacraments. One priest said there’d have to be a statement from the ex wife admitting to deceiving him into marriage.  But that didn’t happen as the ex was by then in a nursing home suffering from severe Alzheimer’s disease.  She has since passed away.
    Now that his ex has died, couldn’t they now go to an SSPV chapel?  Whether or not they’d recognize the annulment shouldn’t matter.  You cannot be married to a dead person, right?


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #27 on: May 14, 2022, 08:30:38 PM »
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  • Just going to throw this out there, let's suppose there were a situation that is clearly a lack of canonical form (Brenda, a Catholic, marries Eddie, a Jєω, before a justice of the peace).  

    Given the situation in the Church, and given that some traditionalists do not think they can approach the local diocese (perhaps they are ecclesiaprivationists who assert that Novus Ordo dioceses have left the Church and have no authority), would it suffice to assemble proof of the lack of canonical form, and then proceed with allowing Brenda to marry a Catholic validly?

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #28 on: May 14, 2022, 10:46:16 PM »
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  • Told, yes, agree with, not necessarily.  A malevolent prospective spouse could just sit there and be silent, keeping their intentions to themselves.
    "Intentions"?  You mean "deceit"?

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #29 on: May 14, 2022, 10:48:25 PM »
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  • I would be interested to know just how serious the lie has to be, to make the marriage invalid.  A mistake of person --- in an arranged marriage, where you have not seen the spouse before the wedding day, or just met them shortly before, and an imposter is inserted where you were fooled as to who the person is (but could that ever happen in the modern world?) --- yes, being misled about the character and life history of the person, again, I'd be interested to know where that line is drawn.

    Having married someone who turns out to have been a serial killer before the wedding, and you were of the mindset, even if you'd never given it any thought (as you had no reason to suspect your spouse of such a thing), that "I would never marry anyone who had been a serial killer", that would probably hold up.  Having served 30 days in jail for shoplifting (for instance), that's a whole other thing.  (And it might be worth noting that, in either case, no lie had been told, nobody asked the crooked spouse "have you ever been a serial killer?" or even "have you ever shoplifted and served time in the county jail on account of it?".)

    Thoughts from the forum?
    As I have said several times, talk to a good priest about it.