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Author Topic: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?  (Read 5246 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
« on: May 13, 2022, 06:48:45 PM »
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  • (This is not for me)

    Just curious.
    Pre- Vll there were a few hundred annulments granted a year, and probably way more that were not granted.

    Is there currently a way for a Traditional Catholic to at least attempt annulment proceedings, and if so, where?
    Are current NO annulments legitimate? Were they in the past (sixties and seventies)? Since there is no juridical structure for annulments outside of Rome, is it impossible for a non-Ecclesia Dei Trad to get an annulment? Do they go to Rome (via Diocese), and if so, is that a bit hypocritical to do so?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #1 on: May 13, 2022, 06:56:10 PM »
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  • (This is not for me)

    Just curious.
    Pre- Vll there were a few hundred annulments granted a year, and probably way more that were not granted.

    Is there currently a way for a Traditional Catholic to at least attempt annulment proceedings, and if so, where?
    Are current NO annulments legitimate? Were they in the past (sixties and seventies)? Since there is no juridical structure for annulments outside of Rome, is it impossible for a non-Ecclesia Dei Trad to get an annulment? Do they go to Rome (via Diocese), and if so, is that a bit hypocritical to do so?

    I'd be terrified it wasn't legit...especially with "them odds".  A few hundred worldwide before Vatican II, then it went up to some ridiculous number per year just in the United States after Vatican II. They had a justification that mirrored the secular "irreconcilable differences" which meant ANYONE could get an annulment. Basically Catholic Divorce.

    What did Our Lady of Fatima say about sins of the flesh? That most souls in hell are there because of them. And irregular living situation (bad marriage, bad remarriage) has got to be one of the sinkholes that claims many souls. Every other sin is much easier to repent and move away from.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #2 on: May 13, 2022, 08:21:27 PM »
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  • Unless it's an "obvious" case, such as someone baptized Catholic who was not married before a Catholic priest, or it was found out that the person was still married to someone else, or something along those lines, I certainly wouldn't risk my soul on it.  This nonsense about not being psychologically prepared for marriage is certainly bogus ... anything that has any element of subjectivity.  If a marriage has deteriorated beyond repair, then just be content to separate.  People try to pretend that they have some inalienable God-given right to have intercourse.  It's as if you were married and your spouse was ill.  That's God's will for you, and you have to accept it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #3 on: May 13, 2022, 08:25:17 PM »
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  • People try to pretend that they have some inalienable God-given right to have intercourse.

    This is the same attitude that's behind NFP also.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #4 on: May 13, 2022, 08:51:02 PM »
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  • In theory, you could go to the diocese in which you live.  One's standing with the Church, so far as I am aware, has no bearing on whether they will make judgment on an annulment or not.  In theory, a non-Catholic, or even a non-Christian, could go to the Church and ask for a judgment on their marriage or marriages.  All an annulment does is to say, in the eyes of the Catholic Church (and, as I always tell my son, thus in the Eyes of God), that a valid marriage does not exist.

    For lack of canonical form annulments, so far as I am aware, pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II norms are identical.  (I will stand corrected.)  I can't see that being a problem.

    As far as often subtle and nebulous subjective psychological factors, obviously the traditional approach and the post-Vatican II approach are far different.  If one received an annulment on such basis, it would be up to their own conscience, whether to accept this judgment, or to say "these wouldn't have been traditional grounds, I cannot accept this annulment".

    As far as the possibility of doing so outside of the diocesan structures, so far as I am aware, there is no way to have a marriage declared null.  I do know that, supposedly, Hutton Gibson declared Mel's marriage to Robyn invalid.  He had no authority to do this.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #5 on: May 13, 2022, 09:20:31 PM »
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  • This is the same attitude that's behind NFP also.
    Generally, perhaps. I'd also say marriage is a means to funnel these impulses, for those who have not yet mastered them, into a more lawful outlet rather than fornication.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #6 on: May 13, 2022, 09:27:43 PM »
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  • Talk to a traditional priest.
    If you don't have traditional grounds, stop right there and go no further.  As I understand you can only permanently separate if both parties agree or if there is a sin which one party will not stop (infidelity, abuse, etc) which directly affects the marriage.

    If you have traditional grounds, you can file for annulment on NO grounds (they can and may be different).  But if you do not ever attend a diocesan church (even fssp) they may not help you easily.  If you attend only sspx, it is complicated. 

    Only Rome can grant an annulment.  No one else.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #7 on: May 14, 2022, 12:22:31 AM »
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  • Talk to a traditional priest.
    If you don't have traditional grounds, stop right there and go no further.  As I understand you can only permanently separate if both parties agree or if there is a sin which one party will not stop (infidelity, abuse, etc) which directly affects the marriage.

    If you have traditional grounds, you can file for annulment on NO grounds (they can and may be different).  But if you do not ever attend a diocesan church (even fssp) they may not help you easily.  If you attend only sspx, it is complicated.

    Only Rome can grant an annulment.  No one else.
    As I said, the Church holds itself out as being able to pass judgment upon the validity of any marriage.

    Even if you got a diocesan tribunal who regarded you as being schismatic, unless they just wanted to spite you for being a traditionalist --- "oh, so you really want this annulment, coming hat in hand to us, are you?" --- ideally, it should just be a matter of saying "here's the putative marriage, let's evaluate it".

    The way I heard it, hypothetically (though this would never happen in practice), two Jєωs or two Buddhists could walk into a tribunal, with previous marriages, and could say "can you make a judgment on whether we are free to contract what the Catholic Church would regard as a valid [natural, non-sacramental] marriage or not?".  Again, this would never happen, nobody would ever do that, but theoretically, they could.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #8 on: May 14, 2022, 08:04:37 AM »
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  • Unless it's an "obvious" case, such as someone baptized Catholic who was not married before a Catholic priest, or it was found out that the person was still married to someone else, or something along those lines


    Aside from this, no.

    Being incompatible in temperament or being unfaithful during marriage or not intending to have children or claiming one did not intend to get married does not invalidate a marriage.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #9 on: May 14, 2022, 10:33:24 AM »
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  • I understand the legitimate reasons for a true annulment. I just wanted to know if the annulments post- Vll are valid-(.if they changed the process besides becoming extremely liberal?). As many of us don't accept Vll sacraments as being licit or even valid for reasons of ordination and change in rite, how can anyone go to Rome for an annulment?
    In other words, even if for a legitimate cause, a traditional Catholic cannot get an annulment. Seems this is the case.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #10 on: May 14, 2022, 10:37:59 AM »
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  • I understand the legitimate reasons for a true annulment. I just wanted to know if the annulments post- Vll are valid-(.if they changed the process besides becoming extremely liberal?). As many of us don't accept Vll sacraments as being licit or even valid for reasons of ordination and change in rite, how can anyone go to Rome for an annulment?
    In other words, even if for a legitimate cause, a traditional Catholic cannot get an annulment. Seems this is the case.
    Yes, they are, because only Rome can grant them.  

    A traditional Catholic CAN get an annulment.


    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #11 on: May 14, 2022, 10:44:05 AM »
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  • Aside from this, no.

    Being incompatible in temperament or being unfaithful during marriage or not intending to have children or claiming one did not intend to get married does not invalidate a marriage.
    You are wrong.

    Being unfaithful in marriage is grounds, if the party was unfaithful before marriage and knew he/she would be unfaithful after.  

    Same goes for abuse.  If a person had a bad temper and abused other women before marriage and didn't tell either the new wife or the priest before marriage, invalidates the marriage.

    Not telling the spouse, before marriage, that they didn't want or couldn't have children is another valid reason.

    Basicably, any serious lie before marriage invalidates the vow.

    OP, talk to any good traditional priest.  Not sspx, not Pfeiffer, not Webster or any in his line, etc.  A good priest.

    Offline epiphany

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #12 on: May 14, 2022, 10:47:55 AM »
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  • As I said, the Church holds itself out as being able to pass judgment upon the validity of any marriage.

    Even if you got a diocesan tribunal who regarded you as being schismatic, unless they just wanted to spite you for being a traditionalist --- "oh, so you really want this annulment, coming hat in hand to us, are you?" --- ideally, it should just be a matter of saying "here's the putative marriage, let's evaluate it".

    The way I heard it, hypothetically (though this would never happen in practice), two Jєωs or two Buddhists could walk into a tribunal, with previous marriages, and could say "can you make a judgment on whether we are free to contract what the Catholic Church would regard as a valid [natural, non-sacramental] marriage or not?".  Again, this would never happen, nobody would ever do that, but theoretically, they could.
    Not true.  I knew a Protestant who requested and was granted an annulment.

    Remember, the traditional and NO grounds may be different.  Talk to a traditional priest you trust and go from there.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #13 on: May 14, 2022, 12:14:50 PM »
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  • Yes, they are, because only Rome can grant them. 

    A traditional Catholic CAN get an annulment.
    From a questionable priest in a questionable tribunal?
    Does the hijacked consilliar church still have the authority? By whom?

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
    « Reply #14 on: May 14, 2022, 12:20:41 PM »
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  • Not true.  I knew a Protestant who requested and was granted an annulment.

    Remember, the traditional and NO grounds may be different.  Talk to a traditional priest you trust and go from there.

    I simply meant that it is very difficult to imagine a non-Catholic, with no connection to the Catholic Church, and not seeking to marry a Catholic, going to a diocesan tribunal and asking for a judgment on whether their marriage would be considered valid by the Catholic Church.  One has to ask "what would be the point?".   

    There could be exceptions --- the case you cite could be an exception (I couldn't say without knowing more) --- but I have to think it would be highly, highly unusual for a non-Catholic, under the conditions I described above, to want to know, or to care, what the Catholic Church thinks of a marriage they've contracted.  But I suppose anything's possible --- they would be within their rights to inquire, and the Church would be within her rights to render such a judgment.