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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: josefamenendez on May 13, 2022, 06:48:45 PM

Title: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 13, 2022, 06:48:45 PM
(This is not for me)

Just curious.
Pre- Vll there were a few hundred annulments granted a year, and probably way more that were not granted.

Is there currently a way for a Traditional Catholic to at least attempt annulment proceedings, and if so, where?
Are current NO annulments legitimate? Were they in the past (sixties and seventies)? Since there is no juridical structure for annulments outside of Rome, is it impossible for a non-Ecclesia Dei Trad to get an annulment? Do they go to Rome (via Diocese), and if so, is that a bit hypocritical to do so?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Matthew on May 13, 2022, 06:56:10 PM
(This is not for me)

Just curious.
Pre- Vll there were a few hundred annulments granted a year, and probably way more that were not granted.

Is there currently a way for a Traditional Catholic to at least attempt annulment proceedings, and if so, where?
Are current NO annulments legitimate? Were they in the past (sixties and seventies)? Since there is no juridical structure for annulments outside of Rome, is it impossible for a non-Ecclesia Dei Trad to get an annulment? Do they go to Rome (via Diocese), and if so, is that a bit hypocritical to do so?

I'd be terrified it wasn't legit...especially with "them odds".  A few hundred worldwide before Vatican II, then it went up to some ridiculous number per year just in the United States after Vatican II. They had a justification that mirrored the secular "irreconcilable differences" which meant ANYONE could get an annulment. Basically Catholic Divorce.

What did Our Lady of Fatima say about sins of the flesh? That most souls in hell are there because of them. And irregular living situation (bad marriage, bad remarriage) has got to be one of the sinkholes that claims many souls. Every other sin is much easier to repent and move away from.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 13, 2022, 08:21:27 PM
Unless it's an "obvious" case, such as someone baptized Catholic who was not married before a Catholic priest, or it was found out that the person was still married to someone else, or something along those lines, I certainly wouldn't risk my soul on it.  This nonsense about not being psychologically prepared for marriage is certainly bogus ... anything that has any element of subjectivity.  If a marriage has deteriorated beyond repair, then just be content to separate.  People try to pretend that they have some inalienable God-given right to have intercourse.  It's as if you were married and your spouse was ill.  That's God's will for you, and you have to accept it.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 13, 2022, 08:25:17 PM
People try to pretend that they have some inalienable God-given right to have intercourse.

This is the same attitude that's behind NFP also.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 13, 2022, 08:51:02 PM
In theory, you could go to the diocese in which you live.  One's standing with the Church, so far as I am aware, has no bearing on whether they will make judgment on an annulment or not.  In theory, a non-Catholic, or even a non-Christian, could go to the Church and ask for a judgment on their marriage or marriages.  All an annulment does is to say, in the eyes of the Catholic Church (and, as I always tell my son, thus in the Eyes of God), that a valid marriage does not exist.

For lack of canonical form annulments, so far as I am aware, pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II norms are identical.  (I will stand corrected.)  I can't see that being a problem.

As far as often subtle and nebulous subjective psychological factors, obviously the traditional approach and the post-Vatican II approach are far different.  If one received an annulment on such basis, it would be up to their own conscience, whether to accept this judgment, or to say "these wouldn't have been traditional grounds, I cannot accept this annulment".

As far as the possibility of doing so outside of the diocesan structures, so far as I am aware, there is no way to have a marriage declared null.  I do know that, supposedly, Hutton Gibson declared Mel's marriage to Robyn invalid.  He had no authority to do this.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 13, 2022, 09:20:31 PM
This is the same attitude that's behind NFP also.
Generally, perhaps. I'd also say marriage is a means to funnel these impulses, for those who have not yet mastered them, into a more lawful outlet rather than fornication.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 13, 2022, 09:27:43 PM
Talk to a traditional priest.
If you don't have traditional grounds, stop right there and go no further.  As I understand you can only permanently separate if both parties agree or if there is a sin which one party will not stop (infidelity, abuse, etc) which directly affects the marriage.

If you have traditional grounds, you can file for annulment on NO grounds (they can and may be different).  But if you do not ever attend a diocesan church (even fssp) they may not help you easily.  If you attend only sspx, it is complicated. 

Only Rome can grant an annulment.  No one else.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 14, 2022, 12:22:31 AM
Talk to a traditional priest.
If you don't have traditional grounds, stop right there and go no further.  As I understand you can only permanently separate if both parties agree or if there is a sin which one party will not stop (infidelity, abuse, etc) which directly affects the marriage.

If you have traditional grounds, you can file for annulment on NO grounds (they can and may be different).  But if you do not ever attend a diocesan church (even fssp) they may not help you easily.  If you attend only sspx, it is complicated.

Only Rome can grant an annulment.  No one else.
As I said, the Church holds itself out as being able to pass judgment upon the validity of any marriage.

Even if you got a diocesan tribunal who regarded you as being schismatic, unless they just wanted to spite you for being a traditionalist --- "oh, so you really want this annulment, coming hat in hand to us, are you?" --- ideally, it should just be a matter of saying "here's the putative marriage, let's evaluate it".

The way I heard it, hypothetically (though this would never happen in practice), two Jєωs or two Buddhists could walk into a tribunal, with previous marriages, and could say "can you make a judgment on whether we are free to contract what the Catholic Church would regard as a valid [natural, non-sacramental] marriage or not?".  Again, this would never happen, nobody would ever do that, but theoretically, they could.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 14, 2022, 08:04:37 AM
Unless it's an "obvious" case, such as someone baptized Catholic who was not married before a Catholic priest, or it was found out that the person was still married to someone else, or something along those lines


Aside from this, no.

Being incompatible in temperament or being unfaithful during marriage or not intending to have children or claiming one did not intend to get married does not invalidate a marriage.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 14, 2022, 10:33:24 AM
I understand the legitimate reasons for a true annulment. I just wanted to know if the annulments post- Vll are valid-(.if they changed the process besides becoming extremely liberal?). As many of us don't accept Vll sacraments as being licit or even valid for reasons of ordination and change in rite, how can anyone go to Rome for an annulment?
In other words, even if for a legitimate cause, a traditional Catholic cannot get an annulment. Seems this is the case.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:37:59 AM
I understand the legitimate reasons for a true annulment. I just wanted to know if the annulments post- Vll are valid-(.if they changed the process besides becoming extremely liberal?). As many of us don't accept Vll sacraments as being licit or even valid for reasons of ordination and change in rite, how can anyone go to Rome for an annulment?
In other words, even if for a legitimate cause, a traditional Catholic cannot get an annulment. Seems this is the case.
Yes, they are, because only Rome can grant them.  

A traditional Catholic CAN get an annulment.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:44:05 AM

Aside from this, no.

Being incompatible in temperament or being unfaithful during marriage or not intending to have children or claiming one did not intend to get married does not invalidate a marriage.
You are wrong.

Being unfaithful in marriage is grounds, if the party was unfaithful before marriage and knew he/she would be unfaithful after.  

Same goes for abuse.  If a person had a bad temper and abused other women before marriage and didn't tell either the new wife or the priest before marriage, invalidates the marriage.

Not telling the spouse, before marriage, that they didn't want or couldn't have children is another valid reason.

Basicably, any serious lie before marriage invalidates the vow.

OP, talk to any good traditional priest.  Not sspx, not Pfeiffer, not Webster or any in his line, etc.  A good priest.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:47:55 AM
As I said, the Church holds itself out as being able to pass judgment upon the validity of any marriage.

Even if you got a diocesan tribunal who regarded you as being schismatic, unless they just wanted to spite you for being a traditionalist --- "oh, so you really want this annulment, coming hat in hand to us, are you?" --- ideally, it should just be a matter of saying "here's the putative marriage, let's evaluate it".

The way I heard it, hypothetically (though this would never happen in practice), two Jєωs or two Buddhists could walk into a tribunal, with previous marriages, and could say "can you make a judgment on whether we are free to contract what the Catholic Church would regard as a valid [natural, non-sacramental] marriage or not?".  Again, this would never happen, nobody would ever do that, but theoretically, they could.
Not true.  I knew a Protestant who requested and was granted an annulment.

Remember, the traditional and NO grounds may be different.  Talk to a traditional priest you trust and go from there.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 14, 2022, 12:14:50 PM
Yes, they are, because only Rome can grant them. 

A traditional Catholic CAN get an annulment.
From a questionable priest in a questionable tribunal?
Does the hijacked consilliar church still have the authority? By whom?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 14, 2022, 12:20:41 PM
Not true.  I knew a Protestant who requested and was granted an annulment.

Remember, the traditional and NO grounds may be different.  Talk to a traditional priest you trust and go from there.

I simply meant that it is very difficult to imagine a non-Catholic, with no connection to the Catholic Church, and not seeking to marry a Catholic, going to a diocesan tribunal and asking for a judgment on whether their marriage would be considered valid by the Catholic Church.  One has to ask "what would be the point?".   

There could be exceptions --- the case you cite could be an exception (I couldn't say without knowing more) --- but I have to think it would be highly, highly unusual for a non-Catholic, under the conditions I described above, to want to know, or to care, what the Catholic Church thinks of a marriage they've contracted.  But I suppose anything's possible --- they would be within their rights to inquire, and the Church would be within her rights to render such a judgment.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 14, 2022, 12:58:50 PM

Quote
Being unfaithful in marriage is grounds, if the party was unfaithful before marriage and knew he/she would be unfaithful after.  

Same goes for abuse.  If a person had a bad temper and abused other women before marriage and didn't tell either the new wife or the priest before marriage, invalidates the marriage.

Not telling the spouse, before marriage, that they didn't want or couldn't have children is another valid reason.

Basicably, any serious lie before marriage invalidates the vow.
The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements. 


All the other arguments you mention (cheating/abuse) do not invalidate a marriage.  They would be grounds for separation/civil divorce, but not invalidating.  
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 01:09:40 PM
The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements.


All the other arguments you mention (cheating/abuse) do not invalidate a marriage.  They would be grounds for separation/civil divorce, but not invalidating. 

Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 14, 2022, 01:31:06 PM
The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements.


All the other arguments you mention (cheating/abuse) do not invalidate a marriage.  They would be grounds for separation/civil divorce, but not invalidating. 

Told, yes, agree with, not necessarily.  A malevolent prospective spouse could just sit there and be silent, keeping their intentions to themselves.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: TKGS on May 14, 2022, 01:32:19 PM
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.
Irregardless of the reason one may think he would qualify for an annulment, the only place to start is to speak with a real priest.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: TKGS on May 14, 2022, 01:33:31 PM
Told, yes, agree with, not necessarily.  A malevolent prospective spouse could just sit there and be silent, keeping their intentions to themselves.
As with all sacraments, matrimony is an outward sign.  Keeping intentions entirely secret would not invalidate the sacrament.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 14, 2022, 01:36:41 PM
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.

I would be interested to know just how serious the lie has to be, to make the marriage invalid.  A mistake of person --- in an arranged marriage, where you have not seen the spouse before the wedding day, or just met them shortly before, and an imposter is inserted where you were fooled as to who the person is (but could that ever happen in the modern world?) --- yes, being misled about the character and life history of the person, again, I'd be interested to know where that line is drawn.

Having married someone who turns out to have been a serial killer before the wedding, and you were of the mindset, even if you'd never given it any thought (as you had no reason to suspect your spouse of such a thing), that "I would never marry anyone who had been a serial killer", that would probably hold up.  Having served 30 days in jail for shoplifting (for instance), that's a whole other thing.  (And it might be worth noting that, in either case, no lie had been told, nobody asked the crooked spouse "have you ever been a serial killer?" or even "have you ever shoplifted and served time in the county jail on account of it?".)

Thoughts from the forum?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2022, 01:48:09 PM
Here's the hard pill to swallow, which has caused many to leave the Catholic Faith (see John chapter 6 -- apparent disciples left Our Lord and "walked with Him no more" because "this saying is hard, and who can hear it?")

A bad marriage, or a miserable marriage, or a lonely marriage, is not something you can dissolve or make disappear with the wave of a magic wand. Even the Church can't "help you" here.

One partner forcing the other into a sexless marriage for example. As long as the marriage was consummated, especially if you have one or more children, then the right intentions were assumed to be there at the outset.

Things falling apart, things going bad, spouses growing apart, one/both spouses becoming miserable -- none of those things mean a marriage never took place. They only mean a marriage has gone horribly wrong, you have a BAD marriage, but a marriage nonetheless.

Remember, an annulment is NOT Catholic divorce! There are many reasons non-Catholic couples get divorced -- each divorced couple sought to dissolve or break up a "bad marriage", a marriage where things went wrong, and one/both spouses are unhappy. Usually so they can try again for "happiness" with someone else.

We must not confuse these two concepts!

Often one or both spouses enter into a marriage with vague expectations of the future, that they never voice or barely know about themselves. For example, how much they expect to be earning in 10 or 30 years. What married life will be like. How many children they will have. Precisely what will be required of them, in raising their children. What challenges they will face. What kind of status the man will have in 20, 30 years. What retirement will look like. And so on. There might be differences in EACH OF THESE THINGS if you could somehow X-ray each spouse and look into their deepest thoughts. But such a thing isn't possible. These discrepancies are the seeds of future disagreements and problems. But they don't invalidate a marriage.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Miser Peccator on May 14, 2022, 01:49:13 PM
How about if a husband planned to get an annulment if the marriage didn't work out?

or

 going to a strip club with his groomsmen and getting a lap dance the night before the wedding?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2022, 01:54:49 PM
A) How about if a husband planned to get an annulment if the marriage didn't work out?

or

B) going to a strip club with his groomsmen and getting a lap dance the night before the wedding?

A) If you could prove it, it would invalidate the marriage contract, since marriage is necessarily exclusive, indissoluble, and for life. That's why most priests won't participate in a wedding unless the couple attends some kind of marriage preparation classes, where they learn that "marriage is for life, to one person" and other important things.

B) It would mean he's starting his marriage out on the wrong foot, in mortal sin, and I see a bad marriage coming -- but I don't see how any mortal sin, even of the flesh, would invalidate a marriage. It would have to be a sin which *affects the nature of marriage itself*, such as threatening the priest with death unless he marries them, lying about who you are, hiding the fact you had yourself sterilized, etc.

Again, a down-to-earth, vague "OOOOOh, That's just WROOOOONG, sista!" is not the same thing as something that invalidates entering into a valid marriage contract. We have to reason with our HEADS, not with our hearts.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Miser Peccator on May 14, 2022, 02:18:18 PM
A) If you could prove it, it would invalidate the marriage contract, since marriage is necessarily exclusive, indissoluble, and for life. That's why most priests won't participate in a wedding unless the couple attends some kind of marriage preparation classes, where they learn that "marriage is for life, to one person" and other important things.

B) It would mean he's starting his marriage out on the wrong foot, in mortal sin, and I see a bad marriage coming -- but I don't see how any mortal sin, even of the flesh, would invalidate a marriage. It would have to be a sin which *affects the nature of marriage itself*, such as threatening the priest with death unless he marries them, lying about who you are, hiding the fact you had yourself sterilized, etc.

Again, a down-to-earth, vague "OOOOOh, That's just WROOOOONG, sista!" is not the same thing as something that invalidates entering into a valid marriage contract. We have to reason with our HEADS, not with our hearts.
Thanks for your response.  I wonder...

It seems that most Concilliar Catholics have the belief that they can always just get an annulment.  That's quite the Catch 22. 

With regards to sins of the flesh, doesn't that indicate that he didn't plan on being faithful to one woman?

Are your thoughts based on Canon Law or other sources?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 14, 2022, 03:05:28 PM
I think any lack of full mental capacity at the time of the initiation of the marriage , like drug abuse, alcoholism schitzophrenia etc is a possible cause for a true annulment.  Some actually say immaturity is a reason ,but that would have to be really severe, as far as I can fathom.
Any coercion, like a shot-gun wedding, where someone does not have full intent of the will can be a reason.
The intention to not want children, or to limit children which was not revealed to the intended spouse before the marriage is a cause also.
Along with sɛҳuąƖ relations/affairs with others at the time of the marriage unknown to the potential spouse and or bigamy obviously is a reason.
Every reason had to be present at the time of the wedding- most anything happening afterwards is not annullable.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Seraphina on May 14, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
Two examples from real life:- 
The man has a mistress from several years before meeting his wife to be.  He already has a child with her and she is six months pregnant with his second child at the time of his wedding.  His wife and her family know nothing of it.  They remain married for six years, have two children and are expecting a third when he blows his cover by an unwise financial move.  The mistress knew about it the entire time and was “okay” with it! She was baptized Catholic and he was baptized Lutheran who agreed to raising the kids Catholic, etc.  They got a dispensation. He even went to Mass when he wasn’t “working.”  
Isn’t deliberate deception of a serious nature a legitimate reason for annulment?

A dating couple, both Catholic, discuss marriage. He wants to get engaged, but she’s not sure.  The reason is because she’s been seeing someone else, unbeknownst to him.  They let things go on too long, and she sleeps with the side-lover, becoming pregnant.  He’s not neither Catholic nor a marriage prospect.  When he finds out, he offers an illegal abortion or farewell. She takes the farewell, and then seduces the other man to sin. After thus sinning a number of times, she tells she’s pregnant.  Wanting to do the honorable thing and make it right, they get engaged, go to confession, and have a small Catholic marriage ceremony. The baby girl looks very much like her mother, and as she grows, several distant relatives who knew of her former boyfriend begin talking.  The child begins to resemble the ex-boyfriend and not her father at all.  The marriage isn’t going well.  She says she doesn’t want any more children, and she eventually requests a divorce.  He is most upset, having been trying to be a good Catholic father and husband.  But finally she leaves him for another man and is soon carrying his baby.  They get a civil divorce leaving the girl in his custody.  He gets drafted and custody goes to the mother when he’s deployed to Vietnam. He ends up in country for seven years.  When he returns, his daughter doesn’t know him, doesn’t want to know him.  He spends the next five years being reviled by the general public as happened to most Vietnam vets.  He’s got PTSD, turns to drinking and drugs, but finally, his mother’s prayers are answered.  He gets help, moves in with his brother’s family and his mother, goes back to Church, finds work in construction. He meets a widow with four sons, one still in high school.  She’s Catholic, too.  He knows his ex is still alive, so he says he can’t marry.  She convinces him to request an annulment.  Not surprisingly, he’s granted one by the now VII church.  Still, he doesn’t feel quite right about it.  Again, it’s Mom who has the idea.  She remembers the talk from years before. It takes two years to convince his daughter to consent to a DNA test.  Sure enough, there is no way the two are related. Although not her fault, the daughter is furious and sues her “father” and “grandmother” for defamation, deception, emotional distress, etc.  They lost all but one aspect of the case.  They had a full Church wedding, etc.  About 10 years ago they began attending an Indult Mass, and after it’s relocation at a distance, looked into Mass at an SSPV chapel. When shown the annulment certificate, along with the DNA test, and told the entire story, they’re still barred from receiving the Sacraments. One priest said there’d have to be a statement from the ex wife admitting to deceiving him into marriage.  But that didn’t happen as the ex was by then in a nursing home suffering from severe Alzheimer’s disease.  She has since passed away.
Now that his ex has died, couldn’t they now go to an SSPV chapel?  Whether or not they’d recognize the annulment shouldn’t matter.  You cannot be married to a dead person, right?

Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 14, 2022, 08:30:38 PM
Just going to throw this out there, let's suppose there were a situation that is clearly a lack of canonical form (Brenda, a Catholic, marries Eddie, a Jєω, before a justice of the peace).  

Given the situation in the Church, and given that some traditionalists do not think they can approach the local diocese (perhaps they are ecclesiaprivationists who assert that Novus Ordo dioceses have left the Church and have no authority), would it suffice to assemble proof of the lack of canonical form, and then proceed with allowing Brenda to marry a Catholic validly?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:46:16 PM
Told, yes, agree with, not necessarily.  A malevolent prospective spouse could just sit there and be silent, keeping their intentions to themselves.
"Intentions"?  You mean "deceit"?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:48:25 PM
I would be interested to know just how serious the lie has to be, to make the marriage invalid.  A mistake of person --- in an arranged marriage, where you have not seen the spouse before the wedding day, or just met them shortly before, and an imposter is inserted where you were fooled as to who the person is (but could that ever happen in the modern world?) --- yes, being misled about the character and life history of the person, again, I'd be interested to know where that line is drawn.

Having married someone who turns out to have been a serial killer before the wedding, and you were of the mindset, even if you'd never given it any thought (as you had no reason to suspect your spouse of such a thing), that "I would never marry anyone who had been a serial killer", that would probably hold up.  Having served 30 days in jail for shoplifting (for instance), that's a whole other thing.  (And it might be worth noting that, in either case, no lie had been told, nobody asked the crooked spouse "have you ever been a serial killer?" or even "have you ever shoplifted and served time in the county jail on account of it?".)

Thoughts from the forum?
As I have said several times, talk to a good priest about it.  
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:52:47 PM
A) If you could prove it, it would invalidate the marriage contract, since marriage is necessarily exclusive, indissoluble, and for life. That's why most priests won't participate in a wedding unless the couple attends some kind of marriage preparation classes, where they learn that "marriage is for life, to one person" and other important things.

B) It would mean he's starting his marriage out on the wrong foot, in mortal sin, and I see a bad marriage coming -- but I don't see how any mortal sin, even of the flesh, would invalidate a marriage. It would have to be a sin which *affects the nature of marriage itself*, such as threatening the priest with death unless he marries them, lying about who you are, hiding the fact you had yourself sterilized, etc.

Again, a down-to-earth, vague "OOOOOh, That's just WROOOOONG, sista!" is not the same thing as something that invalidates entering into a valid marriage contract. We have to reason with our HEADS, not with our hearts.
B) if he was in the habit of having sex with others while courting the new wife and she didn't know about it, he didn't tell anyone, and he continued adultery in the marriage, that would invalidate...
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:54:39 PM
I think any lack of full mental capacity at the time of the initiation of the marriage , like drug abuse, alcoholism schitzophrenia etc is a possible cause for a true annulment.  Some actually say immaturity is a reason ,but that would have to be really severe, as far as I can fathom.
Any coercion, like a shot-gun wedding, where someone does not have full intent of the will can be a reason.
The intention to not want children, or to limit children which was not revealed to the intended spouse before the marriage is a cause also.
Along with sɛҳuąƖ relations/affairs with others at the time of the marriage unknown to the potential spouse and or bigamy obviously is a reason.
Every reason had to be present at the time of the wedding- most anything happening afterwards is not annullable.
This is correct.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 10:55:27 PM
This is correct.

Source? :laugh2:
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 10:56:24 PM
B) if he was in the habit of having sex with others while courting the new wife and she didn't know about it, he didn't tell anyone, and he continued adultery in the marriage, that would invalidate...

Uh, negative.  As a whiny, lazy punk who asks for sources he could get himself, that you would offer such groundless, trash input on such a serious matter is most disconcerting, although not remotely surprising.  
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:57:27 PM
Two examples from real life:-
The man has a mistress from several years before meeting his wife to be.  He already has a child with her and she is six months pregnant with his second child at the time of his wedding.  His wife and her family know nothing of it.  They remain married for six years, have two children and are expecting a third when he blows his cover by an unwise financial move.  The mistress knew about it the entire time and was “okay” with it! She was baptized Catholic and he was baptized Lutheran who agreed to raising the kids Catholic, etc.  They got a dispensation. He even went to Mass when he wasn’t “working.” 
Isn’t deliberate deception of a serious nature a legitimate reason for annulment?

A dating couple, both Catholic, discuss marriage. He wants to get engaged, but she’s not sure.  The reason is because she’s been seeing someone else, unbeknownst to him.  They let things go on too long, and she sleeps with the side-lover, becoming pregnant.  He’s not neither Catholic nor a marriage prospect.  When he finds out, he offers an illegal abortion or farewell. She takes the farewell, and then seduces the other man to sin. After thus sinning a number of times, she tells she’s pregnant.  Wanting to do the honorable thing and make it right, they get engaged, go to confession, and have a small Catholic marriage ceremony. The baby girl looks very much like her mother, and as she grows, several distant relatives who knew of her former boyfriend begin talking.  The child begins to resemble the ex-boyfriend and not her father at all.  The marriage isn’t going well.  She says she doesn’t want any more children, and she eventually requests a divorce.  He is most upset, having been trying to be a good Catholic father and husband.  But finally she leaves him for another man and is soon carrying his baby.  They get a civil divorce leaving the girl in his custody.  He gets drafted and custody goes to the mother when he’s deployed to Vietnam. He ends up in country for seven years.  When he returns, his daughter doesn’t know him, doesn’t want to know him.  He spends the next five years being reviled by the general public as happened to most Vietnam vets.  He’s got PTSD, turns to drinking and drugs, but finally, his mother’s prayers are answered.  He gets help, moves in with his brother’s family and his mother, goes back to Church, finds work in construction. He meets a widow with four sons, one still in high school.  She’s Catholic, too.  He knows his ex is still alive, so he says he can’t marry.  She convinces him to request an annulment.  Not surprisingly, he’s granted one by the now VII church.  Still, he doesn’t feel quite right about it.  Again, it’s Mom who has the idea.  She remembers the talk from years before. It takes two years to convince his daughter to consent to a DNA test.  Sure enough, there is no way the two are related. Although not her fault, the daughter is furious and sues her “father” and “grandmother” for defamation, deception, emotional distress, etc.  They lost all but one aspect of the case.  They had a full Church wedding, etc.  About 10 years ago they began attending an Indult Mass, and after it’s relocation at a distance, looked into Mass at an SSPV chapel. When shown the annulment certificate, along with the DNA test, and told the entire story, they’re still barred from receiving the Sacraments. One priest said there’d have to be a statement from the ex wife admitting to deceiving him into marriage.  But that didn’t happen as the ex was by then in a nursing home suffering from severe Alzheimer’s disease.  She has since passed away.
Now that his ex has died, couldn’t they now go to an SSPV chapel?  Whether or not they’d recognize the annulment shouldn’t matter.  You cannot be married to a dead person, right?
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 10:59:08 PM
Just going to throw this out there, let's suppose there were a situation that is clearly a lack of canonical form (Brenda, a Catholic, marries Eddie, a Jєω, before a justice of the peace). 

Given the situation in the Church, and given that some traditionalists do not think they can approach the local diocese (perhaps they are ecclesiaprivationists who assert that Novus Ordo dioceses have left the Church and have no authority), would it suffice to assemble proof of the lack of canonical form, and then proceed with allowing Brenda to marry a Catholic validly?
No.  Annulments can only come from rome.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 11:00:36 PM
Uh, negative.  As a whiny, lazy punk who asks for sources he could get himself, that you would offer such groundless, trash input on such a serious matter is most disconcerting, although not remotely surprising. 
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 14, 2022, 11:00:49 PM
Source? :laugh2:
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:03:57 PM
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow. 

Only if it can be PROVED that is was a lie AT THE TIME the vow was taken.  
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:05:36 PM
Keep voting me down, emoting sh*t-bag.  There is a reason so few annulments were granted in the old days.  You are woefully misinformed.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 14, 2022, 11:06:28 PM
B) if he was in the habit of having sex with others while courting the new wife and she didn't know about it, he didn't tell anyone, and he continued adultery in the marriage, that would invalidate...
No, it wouldn't. What is your proof for this bizarre claim? What Catholic theologians can you cite in favor of this statement?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:07:28 PM
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest.

 Maybe if you re-post this seven more times, perhaps in even larger typeface, it will be true?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 14, 2022, 11:07:38 PM
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.


No, it doesn't. What is your source for this claim?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:08:51 PM
No, it wouldn't. What is your proof for this bizarre claim? What Catholic theologians can you cite in favor of this statement?

It rhymes with hero...as in ZERO.  He's talking nonsense.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 14, 2022, 11:14:21 PM
I think any lack of full mental capacity at the time of the initiation of the marriage , like drug abuse, alcoholism schitzophrenia etc is a possible cause for a true annulment.
Only if he was blackout-blitzed during the ceremony, which you think someone would notice. Sheesh, where do you people get this garbage?


Quote
Some actually say immaturity is a reason ,but that would have to be really severe, as far as I can fathom.


No. An immature person can contract marriage like anyone else.


Quote
Any coercion, like a shot-gun wedding, where someone does not have full intent of the will can be a reason.

And no one noticed the shotgun pointing at him from one of the pews? Come on, people, get real.



Quote
The intention to not want children, or to limit children which was not revealed to the intended spouse before the marriage is a cause also.

Can you please cite a theologian who teaches this.



Quote
Along with sɛҳuąƖ relations/affairs with others at the time of the marriage unknown to the potential spouse and or bigamy obviously is a reason.

Theologian? Who said this?

Wow, we got a lot of Novus Ordo people on this thread. These are all errors of the Novus Ordo sect designed to allow people to violate the laws of Catholic marriage. These errors from you and Epiphany are inventions of the Novus Ordo false church and do not exist in any pre-Vatican II theologian or theological treatise, and are contrary to Catholic tradition.

If even half of the reasons you and Epiphany have given for invalidating marriage were Catholic, the Church would have been handing out tens of thousands of marriage annulments every year for the last 2,000 years, which obviously it hasn't. How do you explain this?

I'm happy to be proved wrong if you want to give us some docuмentation.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 14, 2022, 11:17:28 PM
B) if he was in the habit of having sex with others while courting the new wife and she didn't know about it, he didn't tell anyone, and he continued adultery in the marriage, that would invalidate...

A man could be banging every woman within 100 miles -- before, during and after the nuptials -- and it would not necessarily change anything, whether the woman knew of it or not.  You are an ignorant little punk who should refrain from commenting further about these matters.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 14, 2022, 11:53:07 PM
Only if he was blackout-blitzed during the ceremony, which you think someone would notice. Sheesh, where do you people get this garbage?



No. An immature person can contract marriage like anyone else.


And no one noticed the shotgun pointing at him from one of the pews? Come on, people, get real.



Can you please cite a theologian who teaches this.



Theologian? Who said this?

Wow, we got a lot of Novus Ordo people on this thread. These are all errors of the Novus Ordo sect designed to allow people to violate the laws of Catholic marriage. These errors from you and Epiphany are inventions of the Novus Ordo false church and do not exist in any pre-Vatican II theologian or theological treatise, and are contrary to Catholic tradition.

If even half of the reasons you and Epiphany have given for invalidating marriage were Catholic, the Church would have been handing out tens of thousands of marriage annulments every year for the last 2,000 years, which obviously it hasn't. How do you explain this?

I'm happy to be proved wrong if you want to give us some docuмentation.
I got it from people in my family and friends who went through the annulment process and tribunal . Yes it was Novus Ordo annulments because there isn’t any other kind . All of the reasons I gave were the reasons their annulments were granted . I never said I agreed with this , in fact I am the OP who is asking if a trad can legitimately even get an annulment since it has to go through Rome.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 15, 2022, 12:24:56 AM
No.  Annulments can only come from rome.

I understand that (i.e., either from Rome or from a diocese which has this authority delegated to it by Rome, or are you referring to pre-Vatican II norms, i.e., before V2, did dioceses make declarations of nullity on their own? --- I honestly don't know).

I was just referring to a scenario where it is an open-and-shut, no-doubt-about-it, example of an invalid marriage due to lack of form ("Catholic marries Buddhist in the gondola of a hot air balloon over the Napa Valley with the Dalai Lama officiating"), and that this can be proven by docuмentary evidence that the traditional priest has right there in front of him.  Would the answer still be "nope, not good enough, Rome (or the diocese) has to sign off on this, otherwise, regardless of the evidence, we have to assume the marriage is valid until we get that sign-off"?

And might there be some provision for epikeia in the perceived absence of proper authority to make such a judgment?  "Well, we can't get the sign-off because there is no Pope and there is no competent authority to do it (that would be one particular flavor of SV, there are many, the See can be vacant and the rest of the Church can remain intact, as happens during every interregnum), so we'll accept what we have, rather than continuing to regard Brenda as being in a valid marriage, or rather, a marriage that has not been proven invalid"?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Nadir on May 15, 2022, 12:27:15 AM
B) if he was in the habit of having sex with others while courting the new wife and she didn't know about it, he didn't tell anyone, and he continued adultery in the marriage, that would invalidate...
The sinfulness of the spouse does not invalidate a marriage. 
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 15, 2022, 05:20:24 AM
The sinfulness of the spouse does not invalidate a marriage.
If the spouse is lying and unfaithful at the time of the ceremony and the other spouse has no knowledge of it, hasn't the marriage contract  been voided because of the deceit at the time of the matrimonial ceremony? When does the Pauline Principle come into play?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Nadir on May 15, 2022, 06:15:44 AM
going to a strip club with his groomsmen and getting a lap dance the night before the wedding?
Matthew commented, answering in the negative, to which Epiphany responded after comments by others, with
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow. 

I responded with
The sinfulness of the spouse does not invalidate a marriage.
Now I am no theologian but if sins committed (in this case a serious lie) before marriage could invalidate the marriage, then who could possibly be validly married? 

Your question, Josefa, is referring to dishonesty at the very moment of the vow making, which I can’t answer. That is for a qualified person to decide.

Did you mean Pauline principle or Pauline privilege? I don’t know what the former is.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: 2Vermont on May 15, 2022, 06:20:31 AM
It seems to me that, given only a few hundred annulments were handed out by the Church prior to Vatican II, a VERY large percentage of married couples didn't live their married lives even considering annulment as an option.  Therefore, Trad couples who don't believe the post Vatican II hierarchy gives out true annulments/has authority would then live the same way.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 15, 2022, 06:44:32 AM
The not wanting children *might* be invalidating.  But hard to prove.  That’s why the Church requires marriage classes.  If you go through that process, that’s proof you agree with (and we’re told) the marriage requirements.

Yes, someone has argued that there are in fact more null marriages out there today than before Vatican II, precisely because of poor preparation and that the couples have the mentality of either 1) if this doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce (annulment) and 2) not wanting to have children (going in deciding you're going to contracept).  Certainly the NO preparation for marriage is deplorable and there are tons of people married in the NO with these attitudes.  If I were a Traditional priest, preparing a couple for marriage, I would require that they sign a docuмent assenting to all the conditions for a valid marriage.

But on these grounds, which speak to a person's intent at the time of marriage, I would still refuse to grant an annulment.  How difficult would it be for someone to simply claim "yeah, I never wanted to have children" after they decide that they don't want to be married to their spouse anymore?  I knew a guy in the NO who got an annulment after 20 years of marriage, several children ... and the wife worked for the parish office (so they were rather "dedicated" NO Catholics).  And the guy could just get his buddy to come testify, "yeah, when I knew him he told me he didn't want any kids."  My feeling is, if you didn't know, you should have, and that's culpable ignorance on your part.  Go talk to the NO priest who prepared you for marriage.  Annulment denied.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 15, 2022, 07:01:51 AM
Sinful behavior at the time of marriage (or just before or after marriage) MIGHT speak to some intent or it might not, so by itself it means nothing.  People sin all the time despite on one level not "wanting" to sin.

What is key is not behavior but the disposition of the will.  Such a thing might be adduced before a marriage tribunal as one piece of evidence (much more would be required) of no intent to be married, but there are quite a few degenerates these days who have the attitude that they're going to have one last fling before marriage because they are forced to settle down.  In fact, they have the fling with the thought that they'll be prevented (by marriage) from being able to indulge in such things ... which is an implicit acknowledgment of the intent to remain faithful during marriage.  Anything short of clearcut legal things like prior marriage is very nebulous, and the NO can't be trusted as far as 450-lb. Father Bob can be thrown to properly adjudicate an annulment, given their track-record of declaring annulments on the flimsiest grounds.

Nevertheless, my attitude now is that given the vacuum of authority, I can't impose my judgments or conscience on anyone else.  I've known (even Traditional) couples who had gotten annulments and got married again, and I basically treat them as if they were a legitimate couple.  If I were a priest, I would not refuse them the Sacraments.  I would advise them that they are at great risk of losing their souls, but that's as far as my role as non-pastor would go.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 11:14:58 AM
Only if it can be PROVED that is was a lie AT THE TIME the vow was taken. 
Correct.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 11:15:50 AM
It rhymes with hero...as in ZERO.  He's talking nonsense.
"As a whiny, lazy punk who asks for sources he could get himself, that you would offer such groundless, trash input on such a serious matter is most disconcerting, although not remotely surprising"

"Get off your lazy ass and just search for it."
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 11:16:25 AM
No, it wouldn't. What is your proof for this bizarre claim? What Catholic theologians can you cite in favor of this statement?
Talk to a traditional Catholic priest you trust.  They will tell you and show you.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 11:17:37 AM
A man could be banging every woman within 100 miles -- before, during and after the nuptials -- and it would not necessarily change anything, whether the woman knew of it or not.  You are an ignorant little punk who should refrain from commenting further about these matters.
Wrong. 
"Get off your lazy ass and just search for it."
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 11:24:15 AM
If the spouse is lying and unfaithful at the time of the ceremony and the other spouse has no knowledge of it, hasn't the marriage contract  been voided because of the deceit at the time of the matrimonial ceremony? 
Correct
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 02:35:20 PM
Quote
Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.
Matrimony, just like all other sacraments, have rules in canon law.  Your above "definition" is WAY too vague and would never be accurate, because canon law requires precise definitions and meaning.  There's nothing at all in the orthodox/traditional 1917 code which supports your claim.


A "serious lie"?  Define "serious" and define "lie"...from canon law, please.

:jester:  I can imagine a couple 7 years into their marriage, with 2-3 children, who hate each other.  The husband complains that he doesn't like what's for dinner and wife says "Oh, but this is my mother's meatloaf recipe and when we were dating, you said you LOVED it.  This is a "serious lie" and i'm getting an annulment."  Don't think stuff like this hasn't happened.  When V2 opened the door to "catholic divorce" by allowing annulments for "serious lies" then the horse is out of the barn, and chaos is the order of the deal. P
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 15, 2022, 02:40:14 PM
Matthew commented, answering in the negative, to which Epiphany responded after comments by others, with
I responded withNow I am no theologian but if sins committed (in this case a serious lie) before marriage could invalidate the marriage, then who could possibly be validly married?

Your question, Josefa, is referring to dishonesty at the very moment of the vow making, which I can’t answer. That is for a qualified person to decide.

Did you mean Pauline principle or Pauline privilege? I don’t know what the former is.
Oops- Pauline privilege is what I meant!
No ,I don't mean "just" a serious sin but a sin that would show that the person is not totally in full understanding or is deceptive or insincere about their intentions regarding marriage at the time of the nuptials. Cheating with another other than the spouse at the time of the ceremony is a pretty good example of that.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 02:40:30 PM
Quote
If even half of the reasons you and Epiphany have given for invalidating marriage were Catholic, the Church would have been handing out tens of thousands of marriage annulments every year for the last 2,000 years, which obviously it hasn't. How do you explain this?
Great point, Yeti.  They have no explanation for this because they haven't thought through the errors of their logic.  They are just repeating what they've heard from liberal clerics or their liberal friends.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 02:42:04 PM

Quote
Catholic marries Buddhist in the gondola of a hot air balloon over the Napa Valley with the Dalai Lama officiating
:jester:  I hope I get an invite to that reception.  Sounds like the party would be amazing.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 02:50:16 PM
Matrimony, just like all other sacraments, have rules in canon law.  Your above "definition" is WAY too vague and would never be accurate, because canon law requires precise definitions and meaning.  There's nothing at all in the orthodox/traditional 1917 code which supports your claim.


A "serious lie"?  Define "serious" and define "lie"...from canon law, please.

:jester:  I can imagine a couple 7 years into their marriage, with 2-3 children, who hate each other.  The husband complains that he doesn't like what's for dinner and wife says "Oh, but this is my mother's meatloaf recipe and when we were dating, you said you LOVED it.  This is a "serious lie" and i'm getting an annulment."  Don't think stuff like this hasn't happened.  When V2 opened the door to "catholic divorce" by allowing annulments for "serious lies" then the horse is out of the barn, and chaos is the order of the deal. 
You missed the other half of my comment:
"Any serious lie before marriage invalidates the traditional Catholic vow.  Whether or not the reason qualifies as "serious" should be discussed with a good traditional priest."
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 03:06:20 PM
Epiphany, you need to study/post excerpts from canon law for this.  If you can't/don't want to, then you should stop giving uneducated advice.  "Oh, this is what I heard" or "Some priest said this" is not a good way to spread Truth.  In fact, you could have misheard or misunderstood what they said.  What you are saying is objectively wrong, for pre-V2 catholicism.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 15, 2022, 04:09:45 PM
Grounds for Marriage Annulment in the Catholic Church
There are very well defined canonical grounds for Marriage Annulment. Once these
have been established marriage Annulment can proceed. It is important to
understand the grounds for Marriage Annulment before making application, and if in
doubt you should consult your local priest.
Insufficient use of reason (Canon 1095, 10)
You or your spouse did not know what was happening during the marriage
ceremony because of insanity, mental illness, or a lack of consciousness.
Grave lack of discretionary judgment concerning essential matrimonial rights and
duties (Canon 1095, 20)
You or your spouse was affected by some serious circuмstances or factors that
made you unable to judge or evaluate either the decision to marry or the ability to
create a true marital relationship.
Psychic-natured incapacity to assume marital obligations (Canon 1095, 30)
You or your spouse, at the time of consent, was unable to fulfill the obligations of
marriage because of a serious psychological disorder or other condition.
Ignorance about the nature of marriage (Canon 1096, sec. 1)
You or your spouse did not know that marriage is a permanent relationship between
a man and a woman ordered toward the procreation of offspring by means of some
sɛҳuąƖ cooperation.
Error of person (Canon 1097, sec. 1) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
You or your spouse intended to marry a specific individual who was not the
individual with whom marriage was celebrated. (For example, mail order brides;
otherwise, this rarely occurs in the United States.)
Error about a quality of a person (Canon 1097, sec. 2)
You or your spouse intended to marry someone who either possessed or did not
possess a certain quality, e.g., social status, marital status, education, religious
conviction, freedom from disease, or arrest record. That quality must have been
directly and principally intended.
Fraud (Canon 1098) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
You or your spouse was intentionally deceived about the presence or absence of a
quality in the other. The reason for this deception was to obtain consent to marriage.
Total willful exclusion of marriage (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse did not intend to contract marriage as the law of the Catholic
Church understands marriage. Rather, the ceremony was observed solely as a
means of obtaining something other than marriage itself, e.g., to obtain legal status
in the country or to legitimize a child.

Willful exclusion of children (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, to deny the
other's right to sɛҳuąƖ acts open to procreation.
Willful exclusion of marital fidelity (Canon 1101, 12)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to remain
faithful.
Willful exclusion of marital permanence (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to create a
permanent relationship, retaining an option to divorce.
Future condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)
You or your spouse attached a future condition to your decision to marry, e.g., you
will complete your education, your income will be at a certain level, you will remain in
this area.
Past condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)R
You or your spouse attached a past condition so your decision to marry and that
condition did not exist; e.g., I will marry you provided that you have never been
married before, I will marry you provided that you have graduated from college.
Present condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)
You or your spouse attached a present condition to your decision to marry and that
condition did not exist, e.g., I will marry you provided you don't have any debt.
Force (Canon 1103)
You or your spouse married because of an external physical or moral force that you
could not resist.
Fear (1103)
You or your spouse chose to marry because of fear that was grave and inescapable
and was caused by an outside source.
Error regarding marital unity that determined the will (1099)
You or your spouse married believing that marriage was not necessarily an
exclusive relationship.
Error regarding marital indissolubility that determined the will (Canon 1099)
You or your spouse married believing that civil law had the power to dissolve
marriage and that remarriage was acceptable after civil divorce.
Error regarding marital sacramental dignity that determined the will (Canon 1099)
You and your spouse married believing that marriage is not a religious or sacred
relationship but merely a civil contract or arrangement.
Lack of new consent during convalidation (Canons 1157,1160)
After your civil marriage, you and your spouse participated in a Catholic ceremony
and you or your spouse believed that (1) you were already married, (2) the Catholic
ceremony was merely a blessing, and (3) the consent given during. the Catholic
ceremony had no real effect


Like I said in the OP, I don't think I agree with NO annulments, but here are the grounds with the Canons.



Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 15, 2022, 04:28:50 PM


To shed some light on these questions, I decided to look at a book called The Administration of the Sacraments, a work on sacramental theology by a Dominican theologian before Vatican 2. He addresses some of the errors people have espoused in this thread:

This is for Epiphany's statement that any sort of error before marriage invalidates the marriage. Apparently Fr. Halligan teaches the opposite:

Quote
An error or mistake of fact will be about the person with whom the marriage contract is made or about a quality of that person. To be in error about the very identity of the person with whom one contracts marriage is substantial and invalidates the contract by the natural law itself, i.e., to judge that one is marrying the very party intended, whereas it is someone else. To be mistaken or in error about some quality of the person with whom marriage is contracted is accidental, e.g., that the person is rich, or healthy, or a virgin, or has a different name, etc., and does not of itself invalidate marriage either by natural law or positive law of the Church, even though the contract is based on it. Notwithstanding error about the accidental qualities, the substance of the contract remains -- consent to contract with the person of the other contracting party.


Here is where he refutes the error that people who don't believe marriage is for life are invalidly married:

Quote
An error or mistake of law concerns the nature or essential object and properties of the matrimonial contract, as in the case of ignorance. Thus, a simple error regarding the unity or the indissolubility or the sacramental dignity of marriage, even though the motivating reason for entering into the contract, does not invalidate the matrimonial consent. A simple error is one which remains in the intellect without a positive act following in conformity with it. Thus, as the essence of matrimony has inseparably attached to it is essential properties, in consenting to marriage as it is in itself, consent is thereby also given to its properties of unity and indissolubility. To know a thing with all its properties and to will a thing differ; one can simply will a thing as it is in itself and not know very well its properties or be mistaken about them. Thus an error about the essential qualities of marriage does not necessarily invalidate it. The general intention to contract marriage as instituted by God prevails over the error. Although many consider marriage to be dissoluble and not sacramental, e.g. protestants, Jєωs, infidels, yet they normally will to contract marriage as it is. They probably would positively exclude these properties if they were later questioned about them, but they did not actually exclude them at the time the consent was given.


So even if someone would not have gotten married if he had known it was for life, according to the last sentence, that still does not invalidate his consent.

Here is what he says about simulating consent, one of the favorite errors of the Novus Ordo sect:


Quote
The internal consent of the mind is always presumed to be in conformity with the words or signs used in the contracting of marriage. Simulated or feigned consent is present in marriage when, although exteriorly, the words expressing matrimonial consent are duly and seriously pronounced, one or both parties withhold internal consent .The intention of the pretender may be not to contract marriage, or to contract it but not to assume its obligation, or not to fulfill its obligation. An intention not to contract marriage excludes consent and nullifies the contract. Likewise, the intention not to assume the obligation of marriage, since without it there cannot be true matrimonial consent. The intention not to fulfill the matrimonial obligation does not invalidate consent, as this does not pertain to the essence of the contract. The intention to violate an obligation can exist with the intention to assume the obligation itself.

The second part I underlined refutes the error that someone who commits adultery was not validly married. Yes, they are, even if they didn't intend to fulfill their marital obligations.

Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 04:30:33 PM

Quote
Grounds for Marriage Annulment in the Catholic Church
Are these V2 canons?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 04:49:20 PM
Grounds for Marriage Annulment in the Catholic Church
There are very well defined canonical grounds for Marriage Annulment. Once these
have been established marriage Annulment can proceed. It is important to
understand the grounds for Marriage Annulment before making application, and if in
doubt you should consult your local priest.


Quote
Insufficient use of reason (Canon 1095, 10)
You or your spouse did not know what was happening during the marriage
ceremony because of insanity, mental illness, or a lack of consciousness.
This may only apply to 0.0000001% of population.  Extremely rare.


Quote
Grave lack of discretionary judgment concerning essential matrimonial rights and
duties (Canon 1095, 20)
That's why pre-marriage classes exist.  You can't claim "I didn't know" after the classes.


Quote
You or your spouse was affected by some serious circuмstances or factors that
made you unable to judge or evaluate either the decision to marry or the ability to
create a true marital relationship.
Again, marriage classes close this loophole.


Quote
Psychic-natured incapacity to assume marital obligations (Canon 1095, 30)


You or your spouse, at the time of consent, was unable to fulfill the obligations of
marriage because of a serious psychological disorder or other condition.

Very, very few people are certifiably insane, which would make a marriage vow null and void.  Would only apply to 0.000001% of people.


Quote
Ignorance about the nature of marriage (Canon 1096, sec. 1)

Marriage classes explain all things about marriage.  One cannot claim ignorance after these classes.


Quote
You or your spouse did not know that marriage is a permanent relationship between
a man and a woman ordered toward the procreation of offspring by means of some
sɛҳuąƖ cooperation.
Marriage classes.



Quote
Error of person (Canon 1097, sec. 1) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
You or your spouse intended to marry a specific individual who was not the
individual with whom marriage was celebrated. (For example, mail order brides;
otherwise, this rarely occurs in the United States.)
Proper marriage classes would cover this rare situation.  People have to prove identity and provide baptismal records, etc.  Identity theft could still happen, but rare.


Quote
Error about a quality of a person (Canon 1097, sec. 2)
You or your spouse intended to marry someone who either possessed or did not
possess a certain quality, e.g., social status, marital status, education, religious
conviction, freedom from disease, or arrest record. That quality must have been
directly and principally intended.
Ridiculous V2 garbage.  "For better or for worse" covers this situation.



Quote
Fraud (Canon 1098) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
You or your spouse was intentionally deceived about the presence or absence of a
quality in the other. The reason for this deception was to obtain consent to marriage.
Total willful exclusion of marriage (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
More V2 garbage.  If the person you marry lied about "being ABLE to marry" (i.e. they were already married but said they weren't) this would be a main reason that lying could invalidate.  Or...that the person was impotent/sterile and knew so, but lied and said they were healthy.  Outside of these 2 reasons, any other "quality" is irrelevant.



Quote
You or your spouse did not intend to contract marriage as the law of the Catholic
Church understands marriage. Rather, the ceremony was observed solely as a
means of obtaining something other than marriage itself, e.g., to obtain legal status
in the country or to legitimize a child.
If you go through marriage classes and agree to everything, and the priest "passes you" in the class.  And then you go before God in church and promise to fulfill marriage...that's a marriage.  No ifs, ands or buts.


Quote
Willful exclusion of children (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, to deny the
other's right to sɛҳuąƖ acts open to procreation.
Willful exclusion of marital fidelity (Canon 1101, 12)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to remain
faithful.
Willful exclusion of marital permanence (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to create a
permanent relationship, retaining an option to divorce.

Marriage classes.  If you pass the course, you are publicly agreeing to the Church's rules and denying all of the above.  


Quote
Future condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)
You or your spouse attached a future condition to your decision to marry, e.g., you
will complete your education, your income will be at a certain level, you will remain in
this area.

Past condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)R
You or your spouse attached a past condition so your decision to marry and that
condition did not exist; e.g., I will marry you provided that you have never been
married before, I will marry you provided that you have graduated from college.
Present condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)

You or your spouse attached a present condition to your decision to marry and that
condition did not exist, e.g., I will marry you provided you don't have any debt.
Force (Canon 1103)

Again, marriage classes make these excuses impossible.


Quote
You or your spouse married because of an external physical or moral force that you
could not resist.
Fear (1103)
You or your spouse chose to marry because of fear that was grave and inescapable
and was caused by an outside source.
Marriage classes, again.  Also, even if one of the spouses were forced to marry because of a death threat or something...this would be extremely rare.


Quote
Error regarding marital unity that determined the will (1099)
You or your spouse married believing that marriage was not necessarily an
exclusive relationship.
Error regarding marital indissolubility that determined the will (Canon 1099)
You or your spouse married believing that civil law had the power to dissolve
marriage and that remarriage was acceptable after civil divorce.
Error regarding marital sacramental dignity that determined the will (Canon 1099)
You and your spouse married believing that marriage is not a religious or sacred
relationship but merely a civil contract or arrangement.

Can't claim any of these "errors" if you go through marriage classes.


Quote
Lack of new consent during convalidation (Canons 1157,1160)
After your civil marriage, you and your spouse participated in a Catholic ceremony
and you or your spouse believed that (1) you were already married, (2) the Catholic
ceremony was merely a blessing, and (3) the consent given during. the Catholic
ceremony had no real effect
marriage. classes. fixes. this. problem.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 15, 2022, 05:50:25 PM
Are these V2 canons?
I suspect they are 
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 05:58:43 PM
Grounds for Marriage Annulment in the Catholic Church
There are very well defined canonical grounds for Marriage Annulment. Once these
have been established marriage Annulment can proceed. It is important to
understand the grounds for Marriage Annulment before making application, and if in
doubt you should consult your local priest.
Insufficient use of reason (Canon 1095, 10)
You or your spouse did not know what was happening during the marriage
ceremony because of insanity, mental illness, or a lack of consciousness.
Grave lack of discretionary judgment concerning essential matrimonial rights and
duties (Canon 1095, 20)
You or your spouse was affected by some serious circuмstances or factors that
made you unable to judge or evaluate either the decision to marry or the ability to
create a true marital relationship.
Psychic-natured incapacity to assume marital obligations (Canon 1095, 30)
You or your spouse, at the time of consent, was unable to fulfill the obligations of
marriage because of a serious psychological disorder or other condition.
Ignorance about the nature of marriage (Canon 1096, sec. 1)
You or your spouse did not know that marriage is a permanent relationship between
a man and a woman ordered toward the procreation of offspring by means of some
sɛҳuąƖ cooperation.
Error of person (Canon 1097, sec. 1) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
You or your spouse intended to marry a specific individual who was not the
individual with whom marriage was celebrated. (For example, mail order brides;
otherwise, this rarely occurs in the United States.)
Error about a quality of a person (Canon 1097, sec. 2)
You or your spouse intended to marry someone who either possessed or did not
possess a certain quality, e.g., social status, marital status, education, religious
conviction, freedom from disease, or arrest record. That quality must have been
directly and principally intended.
Fraud (Canon 1098) Reasons for Marriage Annulment
You or your spouse was intentionally deceived about the presence or absence of a
quality in the other. The reason for this deception was to obtain consent to marriage.
Total willful exclusion of marriage (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse did not intend to contract marriage as the law of the Catholic
Church understands marriage. Rather, the ceremony was observed solely as a
means of obtaining something other than marriage itself, e.g., to obtain legal status
in the country or to legitimize a child.

Willful exclusion of children (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, to deny the
other's right to sɛҳuąƖ acts open to procreation.
Willful exclusion of marital fidelity (Canon 1101, 12)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to remain
faithful.
Willful exclusion of marital permanence (Canon 1101, sec. 2)
You or your spouse married intending, either explicitly or implicitly, not to create a
permanent relationship, retaining an option to divorce.
Future condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)
You or your spouse attached a future condition to your decision to marry, e.g., you
will complete your education, your income will be at a certain level, you will remain in
this area.
Past condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)R
You or your spouse attached a past condition so your decision to marry and that
condition did not exist; e.g., I will marry you provided that you have never been
married before, I will marry you provided that you have graduated from college.
Present condition (Canon 1102, sec. 2)
You or your spouse attached a present condition to your decision to marry and that
condition did not exist, e.g., I will marry you provided you don't have any debt.
Force (Canon 1103)
You or your spouse married because of an external physical or moral force that you
could not resist.
Fear (1103)
You or your spouse chose to marry because of fear that was grave and inescapable
and was caused by an outside source.
Error regarding marital unity that determined the will (1099)
You or your spouse married believing that marriage was not necessarily an
exclusive relationship.
Error regarding marital indissolubility that determined the will (Canon 1099)
You or your spouse married believing that civil law had the power to dissolve
marriage and that remarriage was acceptable after civil divorce.
Error regarding marital sacramental dignity that determined the will (Canon 1099)
You and your spouse married believing that marriage is not a religious or sacred
relationship but merely a civil contract or arrangement.
Lack of new consent during convalidation (Canons 1157,1160)
After your civil marriage, you and your spouse participated in a Catholic ceremony
and you or your spouse believed that (1) you were already married, (2) the Catholic
ceremony was merely a blessing, and (3) the consent given during. the Catholic
ceremony had no real effect


Like I said in the OP, I don't think I agree with NO annulments, but here are the grounds with the Canons.
Thank you for posting this.  
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 05:59:48 PM

 any sort of error before marriage invalidates the marriage. 
I never said any such thing.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 06:03:26 PM
Grounds for Marriage Annulment in the Catholic Church
There are very well defined canonical grounds for Marriage Annulment. Once these
have been established marriage Annulment can proceed. It is important to
understand the grounds for Marriage Annulment before making application, and if in
doubt you should consult your local priest.

This may only apply to 0.0000001% of population.  Extremely rare.

That's why pre-marriage classes exist.  You can't claim "I didn't know" after the classes.

Again, marriage classes close this loophole.


Very, very few people are certifiably insane, which would make a marriage vow null and void.  Would only apply to 0.000001% of people.


Marriage classes explain all things about marriage.  One cannot claim ignorance after these classes.

Marriage classes.


Proper marriage classes would cover this rare situation.  People have to prove identity and provide baptismal records, etc.  Identity theft could still happen, but rare.

Ridiculous V2 garbage.  "For better or for worse" covers this situation.


More V2 garbage.  If the person you marry lied about "being ABLE to marry" (i.e. they were already married but said they weren't) this would be a main reason that lying could invalidate.  Or...that the person was impotent/sterile and knew so, but lied and said they were healthy.  Outside of these 2 reasons, any other "quality" is irrelevant.


If you go through marriage classes and agree to everything, and the priest "passes you" in the class.  And then you go before God in church and promise to fulfill marriage...that's a marriage.  No ifs, ands or buts.


Marriage classes.  If you pass the course, you are publicly agreeing to the Church's rules and denying all of the above. 


Again, marriage classes make these excuses impossible.

Marriage classes, again.  Also, even if one of the spouses were forced to marry because of a death threat or something...this would be extremely rare.


Can't claim any of these "errors" if you go through marriage classes.

marriage. classes. fixes. this. problem.
Pax, marriage classes don't prevent deceit.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 06:19:09 PM
Epiphany you’re drinking the V2 koolaid.  Hope it’s good.

Only certain deceits, very minimal, are invalidating per canon law. 
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 15, 2022, 06:42:16 PM
Pax, marriage classes don't prevent deceit.
... and deceit doesn't invalidate a marriage. Did you read what I quoted from that pre-Vatican 2 theologian?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 06:54:49 PM
Epiphany you’re drinking the V2 koolaid.  Hope it’s good.

Only certain deceits, very minimal, are invalidating per canon law.
1917
Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.

There are other reasons allowed for legit annulment pre-vat II, but deceit of a serious nature is one of them.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 15, 2022, 06:56:55 PM
I suspect they are
Yes, they are. They are from the JP2 1983 Code of Canon Law (https://www.jgray.org/codes/cic83eng.html). They are not part of traditional Catholic faith, morals or canon law.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 07:23:01 PM

Quote
1917

Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.
Ok, this is a good start.  But you can't read 1 canon in isolation.  Keep reading.


Or...you can read pre-V2 commentary on canon law, like Yeti posted, and take their advice.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 15, 2022, 07:38:00 PM
1917
Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.

There are other reasons allowed for legit annulment pre-vat II, but deceit of a serious nature is one of them.
This is not from the 1917 Code of Canon Law (https://cdn.restorethe54.com/media/pdf/1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf) at all. It is Canon 1098 in the JP2, 1983 Code of Canon Law (https://juiciobrennan.com/files/bishopselection/code_of_canon_law_1983.pdf).

And again, this is contradicted by what I quoted, in that pre-Vatican 2 theologian who is just giving the teaching and practice of the Church.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 15, 2022, 07:39:08 PM
Ok, this is a good start.  But you can't read 1 canon in isolation.  Keep reading.


Or...you can read pre-V2 commentary on canon law, like Yeti posted, and take their advice.
It's not a start at all, it's a quote from the 1983 code of canon law. Obviously such a statement does not occur in the 1917 code or in any pre-Vatican 2 authority.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 15, 2022, 07:42:22 PM

Quote
This is not from the 1917 Code of Canon Law (https://cdn.restorethe54.com/media/pdf/1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf) at all. It is Canon 1098 in the JP2, 1983 Code of Canon Law (https://juiciobrennan.com/files/bishopselection/code_of_canon_law_1983.pdf).
!!  Good catch.  I was assuming Epiphany knew the difference.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 15, 2022, 09:20:19 PM
Just skimming over Woywod/Smith's commentary on the 1917 CIC (too much to reproduce or quote here), it looks like declarations of nullity could indeed be had at the diocesan level (no. 1866-1899 re canons 1960-1992), IOW, apparently not all annulments had to be signed off on by Rome.  Again, I am just skimming, there's a lot there.  Can anyone help me out?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 15, 2022, 09:47:46 PM
This is not from the 1917 Code of Canon Law (https://cdn.restorethe54.com/media/pdf/1917-code-of-canon-law-english.pdf) at all. It is Canon 1098 in the JP2, 1983 Code of Canon Law (https://juiciobrennan.com/files/bishopselection/code_of_canon_law_1983.pdf).

And again, this is contradicted by what I quoted, in that pre-Vatican 2 theologian who is just giving the teaching and practice of the Church.
My apologies. 
1917
Canon 1083
§ 1. Error concerning the person renders marriage invalid.
§ 2. Error about a quality of the person, even if it gave rise to the contract, renders marriage invalid only:
1.° If the error about quality amounts to an error of the person;
2.° If a free person contracts marriage with a person thought to be free, but he was really a slave in servitude strictly speaking.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 15, 2022, 10:34:48 PM
My apologies.
1917
Canon 1083
§ 1. Error concerning the person renders marriage invalid.
§ 2. Error about a quality of the person, even if it gave rise to the contract, renders marriage invalid only:
1.° If the error about quality amounts to an error of the person;
2.° If a free person contracts marriage with a person thought to be free, but he was really a slave in servitude strictly speaking.
Okay, so before Vatican 2 the only error concerning a person that would render a marriage invalid was if:

1. You thought you were marrying Jane, but instead (never having met Jane in real life[?!]) you married Beth, who is an imposter impersonating Jane [???!!], or
2. You married Jane believing that she was a free woman, whereas in reality she was a slave [?????!!!].

Do either of these cases sound like the kind of thing that comes up often in a suburban American Novus Ordo marriage tribunal? And yet those are the only two errors about marriage that would render a marriage invalid according to the pre-Vatican 2 code of canon law?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 16, 2022, 07:08:22 AM
Ok- all well and good. But it looks like a traditional person requesting an annulment today would have to go through a diocesan process/ Rome and be subject to post- Vll canons. There does not appear to be any other way. So if a trad rejects Vll, they would be hypocritical at best accepting a Vll annulment fpr themselves.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:22:50 AM
Okay, so before Vatican 2 the only error concerning a person that would render a marriage invalid was if:

1. You thought you were marrying Jane, but instead (never having met Jane in real life[?!]) you married Beth, who is an imposter impersonating Jane [???!!], or
2. You married Jane believing that she was a free woman, whereas in reality she was a slave [?????!!!].

Do either of these cases sound like the kind of thing that comes up often in a suburban American Novus Ordo marriage tribunal? And yet those are the only two errors about marriage that would render a marriage invalid according to the pre-Vatican 2 code of canon law?
So you are a theologian now?
I don't read it that way at all.
The "person" includes everything about the person.
 I did not list all the exceptions from the 1917 code, only the one I thought applied to deceit.
It is clearly difficult for laity to understand Canon law, which is why there are Canon lawyers who study it for years..

As I have said several times: talk to a traditional priest you trust.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:28:12 AM
Ok- all well and good. But it looks like a traditional person requesting an annulment today would have to go through a diocesan process/ Rome and be subject to post- Vll canons. There does not appear to be any other way. So if a trad rejects Vll, they would be hypocritical at best accepting a Vll annulment fpr themselves.
Yes, a traditional person would have to go through the diocesan process for an annulment because such authority lies only with Rome.  There is no other way.

However, if a trad rejects VII he would not be hypocritical getting an annulment, because VII did not annul the structure of the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:31:22 AM
Just skimming over Woywod/Smith's commentary on the 1917 CIC (too much to reproduce or quote here), it looks like declarations of nullity could indeed be had at the diocesan level (no. 1866-1899 re canons 1960-1992), IOW, apparently not all annulments had to be signed off on by Rome.  Again, I am just skimming, there's a lot there.  Can anyone help me out?
This is correct.  The power lies with Rome but Rome can grant authority for such to the diocesan level just like a bishop can grant authority for a priest to perform a confirmation.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 16, 2022, 11:11:43 AM

Quote
The "person" includes everything about the person.
 I did not list all the exceptions from the 1917 code, only the one I thought applied to deceit.
It is clearly difficult for laity to understand Canon law, which is why there are Canon lawyers who study it for years..

As I have said several times: talk to a traditional priest you trust.
Priests aren't canon lawyers either; they'll just get advice from V2 sources, which is liberal advice.  Yeti posted commentary from such pre-V2 lawyers and you rejected it.  You just want the watered down V2 rules.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 16, 2022, 11:14:58 AM
Quote
OP, talk to any good traditional priest.  Not sspx, not Pfeiffer, not Webster or any in his line, etc.  A good priest.
I just noticed that this is how Epiphany defines "traditional priest".  Since he's advocating for rome annulments, I assume he's not a sedevacantist, which leaves only the "indult" priests (if they are actually priests) as traditional (and they aren't traditional).


Just so everyone knows that ephiphany is an indult novus ordo type.  That's why he's arguing for the new code.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: josefamenendez on May 16, 2022, 12:37:06 PM
Yes, a traditional person would have to go through the diocesan process for an annulment because such authority lies only with Rome.  There is no other way.

However, if a trad rejects VII he would not be hypocritical getting an annulment, because VII did not annul the structure of the Catholic Church.
They would be subject to Vll canons
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Emile on May 16, 2022, 01:27:02 PM
In the present situation it's highly debatable just who could make a binding decision regarding nullity. Marriage law itself is large and complex (here's the canons regarding marriage from CIC1917, with commentary, over 400 pages https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary/page/1/mode/1up (https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary/page/1/mode/1up)).
I think, at the present time, unless it is a very clear-cut case, the safest course is to presume validity.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 16, 2022, 03:36:57 PM
In the present situation it's highly debatable just who could make a binding decision regarding nullity. Marriage law itself is large and complex (here's the canons regarding marriage from CIC1917, with commentary, over 400 pages https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary/page/1/mode/1up (https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary/page/1/mode/1up)).
I think, at the present time, unless it is a very clear-cut case, the safest course is to presume validity.
Thank you Emile. I looked up Canon 1098 in the commentary you linked here, and what it says about canon 1098 (https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary/page/n2142/mode/1up) that Epiphany quoted is completely different from what he said.

Quote
Error is a state of mind in which one mistakes one thing or person for another, as for instance, when we think A is B or a crowbar is a poker. In the first-mentioned case we have what is called error about the person. Now since marriage is effected by the consent of the contracting parties, and the will can desire nothing except what is proposed to it by the intellect, it is evident that such a mistake affects the very substance of the matrimonial consent. Gratian sets forth the example of Lia and Rachel, but his solution is rather quaint. He could have simply answered that an error about the substance of the contract nullifies the consent. It would be an error about the person if James married Olga, when he intended to marry her sister Gemma. Such errors are rare because it is seldom that two sisters resemble each other so closely that they can hardly be distinguished.


So an error about a person means thinking one person is someone else, not a quality about the person as Epiphany tried to argue. But in case it wasn't clear enough, this theologian explicitly lays this out:

Quote
Error about the qualities of the other party is of more frequent occurrence. However, here a distinction must be made. It may be that the quality concerning which one is in error affects the person merely in an accidental way. For instance, Joseph Buro, a citizen of Bruxelles, who went by the name of Buro de Chancartier, married a baroness of Leyden, by name of Theresa Kraus, a rich widow. She protested at the trial that she would never have married Buro had she known that he was not of the nobility. This was a purely accidental quality, and no error that reflected directly or indirectly on the person, and therefore the marriage was declared valid. From this is may be seen that a mistake about an accidental quality (wealth, intelligence, domestic habits, peaceful disposition, health, even concealed pregnancy by another man, etc.) does not alter the substance of the marriage-object, which is the person itself.


This should answer the questions that several other people have asked, about whether lies or concealment about adultery, pregnancy, drug addiction, or other major problems invalidates a marriage, and according to pre-Vatican 2 commentaries they do not. This is even a case of someone who lied in claiming to belong to the nobility in order to marry a rich noblewoman, and Rome said the marriage was valid, even though the noblewoman would never have married that man if she had known he was a commoner.


Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: SimpleMan on May 16, 2022, 04:20:05 PM
This is correct.  The power lies with Rome but Rome can grant authority for such to the diocesan level just like a bishop can grant authority for a priest to perform a confirmation.
Thanks.  I judged myself horribly lazy for not delving deeper, but 30 pages of Woywod isn't a walk in the park, the hour was late, and I had to do a late-night study session with my son, to shepherd him through a difficult homeschool math test that was due today.

Incidentally, he got an 83% B.  Not bad considering that I grade fairly severely, as was the practice in less politically-correct times when a "C" meant "average" and students were glad to get one.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2022, 06:56:23 PM
So an error about a person means thinking one person is someone else, not a quality about the person as Epiphany tried to argue. But in case it wasn't clear enough, this theologian explicitly lays this out:

I think it could be any deception that changes the quality of the person and speaks to their intent to be married.  So, for example, a case I ran into is a guy who got married who had been a sodomite ... and then returned to sodomy shortly after his "marriage".
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 16, 2022, 07:10:46 PM
I think it could be any deception that changes the quality of the person and speaks to their intent to be married.  So, for example, a case I ran into is a guy who got married who had been a sodomite ... and then returned to sodomy shortly after his "marriage".
Did you read the quote from above? Also, a few pages back I posted several long quotes from a pre-Vatican 2 theologian (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/is-there-a-legitimate-way-for-trads-to-get-an-annulment/msg824263/#msg824263) addressing these objections, and the third quote I give answers what you are saying here, that no, this does not render the marriage invalid.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Nadir on May 16, 2022, 07:21:10 PM
I think it could be any deception that changes the quality of the person and speaks to their intent to be married.  So, for example, a case I ran into is a guy who got married who had been a sodomite ... and then returned to sodomy shortly after his "marriage".
Do you know if he intended to return to sodomy, or did he intend, when he made his vows, to be faithful to his spouse? Intention is the crux of it.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 16, 2022, 07:49:11 PM
Do you know if he intended to return to sodomy, or did he intend, when he made his vows, to be faithful to his spouse? Intention is the crux of it.
Okay, looks like I'll have to post this again:



Quote
The internal consent of the mind is always presumed to be in conformity with the words or signs used in the contracting of marriage. Simulated or feigned consent is present in marriage when, although exteriorly, the words expressing matrimonial consent are duly and seriously pronounced, one or both parties withhold internal consent .The intention of the pretender may be not to contract marriage, or to contract it but not to assume its obligation, or not to fulfill its obligation. An intention not to contract marriage excludes consent and nullifies the contract. Likewise, the intention not to assume the obligation of marriage, since without it there cannot be true matrimonial consent. The intention not to fulfill the matrimonial obligation does not invalidate consent, as this does not pertain to the essence of the contract. The intention to violate an obligation can exist with the intention to assume the obligation itself.

Does this answer your question? This is from a pre-Vatican 2 treatise on theology.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Nadir on May 16, 2022, 08:30:25 PM

Quote
The intention not to contract marriage excludes consent and nullifies the contract.
So that is why I said
Do you know if he intended to return to sodomy, or did he intend, when he made his vows, to be faithful to his spouse? Intention is the crux of it.
I know the teachings before vat 2. I was raised on them.
My question was addressed in response to Lad’s.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2022, 09:17:03 PM
Did you read the quote from above? Also, a few pages back I posted several long quotes from a pre-Vatican 2 theologian (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/is-there-a-legitimate-way-for-trads-to-get-an-annulment/msg824263/#msg824263) addressing these objections, and the third quote I give answers what you are saying here, that no, this does not render the marriage invalid.

Of course, but the question is whether something like being a sodomite (not just having committed the act) is not necessarily accidental, but more substantial or essential.  I've seen it argued that it's an essential issue because it relates directly to the marital debt.  I find the argument that a chronic sodomite (thus inclined) is a deception that's essential vs. accidental to be rather convincing.  For someone to have been a chronic fornicator with the opposite sex is in an entirely different category.  In either case, except in the case of obvious legal issues (like established fact of prior marriage) or something obvious, the Conciliar hierarchy simply cannot be trusted to render a Catholic verdict.

I also disagree with the quotes that some kind of internal withholding of consent can invalidate the marriage.  By pronouncing the vows you intend to do what the Church is expecting and the marriage is contracted.  More nonsense about "internal consent" misinterpreted there (a common problem with pre-V2 theology).
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2022, 09:22:17 PM
Okay, looks like I'll have to post this again:

Does this answer your question? This is from a pre-Vatican 2 treatise on theology.

Oh, get off the high horse.  This isn't the only pre-Vatican II source, and some things were debated even before V2.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Ladislaus on May 16, 2022, 09:23:24 PM
Sodomy isn't merely a sin or a behavior, it's a perversion against nature that could be said to entail an essential error regarding the nature of the person being wedded.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:26:30 PM
I just noticed that this is how Epiphany defines "traditional priest".  Since he's advocating for rome annulments, I assume he's not a sedevacantist, which leaves only the "indult" priests (if they are actually priests) as traditional (and they aren't traditional).


Just so everyone knows that ephiphany is an indult novus ordo type.  That's why he's arguing for the new code.
Wrong again, my friend.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:36:08 PM
They would be subject to Vll canons
Correct.

Which is why I suggested talking to a traditional priest you trust.  And if you have pre-VII grounds for annulment, then you can apply for an annulment under post-VII grounds.  They may or may not be the same grounds.  God knows your intention.

If you do not have pre-VII grounds, stop and try to fix the marriage.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 09:50:26 PM
I just noticed that this is how Epiphany defines "traditional priest".  Since he's advocating for rome annulments, I assume he's not a sedevacantist, which leaves only the "indult" priests (if they are actually priests) as traditional (and they aren't traditional).


Just so everyone knows that ephiphany is an indult novus ordo type.  That's why he's arguing for the new code.
"Advocating for rome"?  Are you saying that a sede priest has authority to nullify a marriage?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Nadir on May 16, 2022, 10:25:57 PM
Correct.

Which is why I suggested talking to a traditional priest you trust.  And if you have pre-VII grounds for annulment, then you can apply for an annulment under post-VII grounds.  They may or may not be the same grounds.  God knows your intention.

If you do not have pre-VII grounds, stop and try to fix the marriage.
Did you even read the OP?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 16, 2022, 10:59:16 PM
.... delete
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 17, 2022, 09:02:25 AM
Did you even read the OP?
Yes, dear....
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: gladius_veritatis on May 17, 2022, 07:52:57 PM
Are you saying that a sede priest has authority to nullify a marriage?

No cleric in all of Traddieland has any authority, nor any meaningful canonical standing/status of any kind.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: FlosCarmeli13 on May 18, 2022, 07:09:28 PM
St Jerome

Letter 55

''And in another place: the wife is bound by the law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:39 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co007.htm#verse39) The apostle has thus cut away every plea and has clearly declared that, if a woman (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm) marries again while her husband is living, she is an adulteress. 

You must not speak to me of the violence (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15446a.htm) of a ravisher, a mother's pleading, a father's bidding, the influence of relatives (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm), the insolence and the intrigues of servants, household losses. A husband may be an adulterer or a sodomite, he may be stained with every crime and may have been left by his wife because of his sins (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); yet he is still her husband and, so long as he lives, she may not marry another. The apostle does not promulgate this decree on his own authority but on that of Christ who speaks in him. ''

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001055.htm
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 19, 2022, 10:25:45 AM
St Jerome

Letter 55

''And in another place: the wife is bound by the law as long as her husband lives; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:39 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1co007.htm#verse39) The apostle has thus cut away every plea and has clearly declared that, if a woman (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm) marries again while her husband is living, she is an adulteress.

You must not speak to me of the violence (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15446a.htm) of a ravisher, a mother's pleading, a father's bidding, the influence of relatives (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05782a.htm), the insolence and the intrigues of servants, household losses. A husband may be an adulterer or a sodomite, he may be stained with every crime and may have been left by his wife because of his sins (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); yet he is still her husband and, so long as he lives, she may not marry another. The apostle does not promulgate this decree on his own authority but on that of Christ who speaks in him. ''

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001055.htm
1 Corinthians 7:15
[15] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=7&l=15-#x) But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace.

Matthew 5:31-32
[31] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=31-#x) And it hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. [32] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=5&l=32-#x) But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. 

Matthew 19:9
[9] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=19&l=9-#x) And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

The following is often brought up as evidence that annulments are not allowed:
Matthew 19:6
[6] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=19&l=6-#x) Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. 

We must remember that the Pope is not a man, but the Vicar of Christ on Earth:
Matthew 18:8
[18] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=18&l=18-#x) Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 19, 2022, 10:43:36 AM
Epiphany, do you even know what an annulment is?  It's a decision that THERE WAS NEVER A MARRIAGE AT ALL.  All of your Scripture quotes have to do with divorce, which presumes there was a marriage.  An annulment is not the same thing as a divorce.

It is heresy to suggest that a pope can "loose" a marriage.  No one can, because it is a vow made between the spouses and God.  The Church can only investigate/decide that a marriage was null/void and never happened to begin with.  The Church, in deciding an annulment, is not "loosing" anything because it was never "bound" to begin with.

The Scripture quotes you posted can be applied to Catholics and "civil divorce/separation" but that means that a marriage actually took place.  And catholic doctrine does not allow re-marriage.  No exceptions.  Catholics aren't even allowed to civilly divorce/separate except for extreme circuмstances, and with permission from the clergy (in preV2 times).  But they aren't free to re-marry; they are just free from the bad situation and must live as a single person until (or if) the civil divorce/separation can be mended.

(In the case of death of a spouse, since a widow/widower is no longer married, then it's actually an error/confusion to use the term "re-married".  If they get married again, it's a brand new marriage, with brand new vows).  It is protestant heresy to say that catholics can get re-married because a former spouse committed adultery.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Emile on May 19, 2022, 10:49:34 AM
I think this might be of help to you Epiphany:

Annulment vs. Divorce

A divorce is the dissolving of a lawful civil marriage by the state. The granting of a divorce, in and of itself, is an acknowledgment that there was a marriage in the first place from which a divorce could be granted.

An annulment, however, is not the dissolving of a marriage at all, rather it is a ruling from the Church that there was never a marriage in the first place, i.e., some impediment(s) prevented the marriage from ever taking place – it never happened. The putative married couples were simply cohabitating the whole while and the annulled couples are free to marry “for the first time” if they so choose.


Pax is correct
Quote
It is heresy to suggest that a pope can "loose" a marriage.  No one can, because it is a vow made between the spouses and God.  The Church can only investigate/decide that a marriage was null/void and never happened to begin with.  The Church, in deciding an annulment, is not "loosing" anything because it was never "bound" to begin with.
A good historical example to study is Henry VIII.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Emile on May 19, 2022, 11:29:47 AM
Downthumbing isn't going to change the truth. Maybe come back when you grow up.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 19, 2022, 11:54:03 AM

It is heresy to suggest that a pope can "loose" a marriage.  No one can, because it is a vow made between the spouses and God.  The Church can only investigate/decide that a marriage was null/void and never happened to begin with.  The Church, in deciding an annulment, is not "loosing" anything because it was never "bound" to begin with.
Not heresy.  In fact, truth.
https://www.catholicbible101.com/annulments.htm

I don't have time or energy to look up more sites for you.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 19, 2022, 11:54:51 AM
I think this might be of help to you Epiphany:

Annulment vs. Divorce

A divorce is the dissolving of a lawful civil marriage by the state. The granting of a divorce, in and of itself, is an acknowledgment that there was a marriage in the first place from which a divorce could be granted.

An annulment, however, is not the dissolving of a marriage at all, rather it is a ruling from the Church that there was never a marriage in the first place, i.e., some impediment(s) prevented the marriage from ever taking place – it never happened. The putative married couples were simply cohabitating the whole while and the annulled couples are free to marry “for the first time” if they so choose.


Pax is correctA good historical example to study is Henry VIII.
I know the difference.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Emile on May 19, 2022, 12:33:30 PM
I know the difference.
It doesn't appear that you do.
If a couple are actually married, no one, save God or death, can dissolve it, not even the Pope (thus why I recommended looking at Henry VIII).

A finding of nullity by the Church is a declaration that there was something, at the time of the exchange of vows, that impeded the ability of one or both of the parties to enter into the marriage contract.

Something that needs to also be said is that the declaration of nullity is NOT infallible. The legitimate purpose for examining a marriage is so that people of good will can have MORAL certitude about their marital status. If they are not of good will and are just "playing the system" to get their declaration, no "power to loose" is going to save them (excepting, of course, they make a valid confession and are absolved). Now a declaration of nullity (DoN) is binding, that is clergy are bound to accept the finding, even if they themselves have doubts about it. Obviously, in the present situation, not many trust anything that comes out of Rome or the diocesan tribunals, which is why trad clergy often do not feel bound by a DoN, and want to examine the case themselves.


Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: FlosCarmeli13 on May 19, 2022, 12:54:44 PM
 And if you have pre-VII grounds for annulment, then you can apply for an annulment under post-VII grounds.  They may or may not be the same grounds.  God knows your intention.
Just wondering, epiphany, are you really suggesting that one should lie in order to get an annulment?  If one has a pre-VII (traditional) ground for an annulment why would one use a post-VII ground that is different?  Why use a false ground?

The end does not justify the means.  



Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 19, 2022, 01:18:00 PM
Just wondering, epiphany, are you really suggesting that one should lie in order to get an annulment? 

If one has a pre-VII (traditional) ground for an annulment why would one use a post-VII ground that is different? 

Why use a false ground?

No, I am not suggesting anyone lie.

 I suggested is that it may be possible someone qualifies under pre-VII grounds and post-VII grounds which may be different.

I did not suggest in any way to use false grounds.
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: epiphany on May 19, 2022, 01:31:24 PM
It doesn't appear that you do.
If a couple are actually married, no one, save God or death, can dissolve it, not even the Pope (thus why I recommended looking at Henry VIII).

A finding of nullity by the Church is a declaration that there was something, at the time of the exchange of vows, that impeded the ability of one or both of the parties to enter into the marriage contract.

Something that needs to also be said is that the declaration of nullity is NOT infallible. The legitimate purpose for examining a marriage is so that people of good will can have MORAL certitude about their marital status. If they are not of good will and are just "playing the system" to get their declaration, no "power to loose" is going to save them (excepting, of course, they make a valid confession and are absolved). Now a declaration of nullity (DoN) is binding, that is clergy are bound to accept the finding, even if they themselves have doubts about it. Obviously, in the present situation, not many trust anything that comes out of Rome or the diocesan tribunals, which is why trad clergy often do not feel bound by a DoN, and want to examine the case themselves.
https://www.catholicbible101.com/annulments.htm
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Emile on May 19, 2022, 01:35:10 PM
https://www.catholicbible101.com/annulments.htm
Is there something in particular that you would like to point out?
Title: Re: Is There a Legitimate Way for Trads to get an Annulment?
Post by: Yeti on May 19, 2022, 03:42:34 PM
Is there something in particular that you would like to point out?
I hope not. That is a Novus Ordo website that teaches modernist, Novus Ordo ideas on matrimony.

Epiphany, I'm not sure where you're coming from, but in Vatican 2 there were a lot of teachings of the Church that were thrown out by modernists. That includes a lot of teachings on the sacraments, including the sacraments themselves.

Traditional Catholics are called that because they reject these changes to the teaching and practice of the Church.

That's what we are talking about when we talk about Novus Ordo errors on matrimony. They changed how matrimony works (or attempted to change it, since no one can actually do such a thing). Those changes include new teachings on annulments and what constitutes the conditions for a valid marriage.

So, to know what the Church actually teaches on matrimony, you have to look at sources from before Vatican 2. That's why I and a few others in this thread have been quoting theologians and Fathers of the Church. That's where you will get the traditional Catholic teaching on matrimony.

I am curious why you post a Novus Ordo-era website espousing Novus Ordo errors as a response to what we have cited in this discussion.