Author Topic: Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?  (Read 6984 times)

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Offline Emitte Lucem Tuam

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Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
« on: November 14, 2014, 07:21:39 PM »
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  • With Francis-Bergoglio continuing to lead the Novus Ordo hastily away from Catholicism, what in the world is the SSPX (and the Resistance) contemplating?  All is well and peaceful in my sede chapel and in most other sede chapels in today's world, but there seems to be a lot of turmoil in the Novus Ordo, in the SSPX Chapels, and in the SSPX Resistance - all of them under Francis-Bergoglio (at least, figuratively speaking).  What are we to make of it?  

    Offline andysloan

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #1 on: November 14, 2014, 07:41:54 PM »
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  • That satan's primary focus is on those who still have the faith, which in one definition, is being subject to the validly elected pontiff.

    He doesn't want to disturb the sedevacantists as we see from your post, for he doesn't want to give you any impression that you are in grave error (and de facto enemies of God!):


    Dogmas of the Holy Roman Catholic Church


    "According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time".


    "He left you this sweet key of obedience; for as you know He left His vicar, the Christ, on earth, whom you are all obliged to obey until death, and whoever is outside His obedience is in a state of damnation, as I have already told you in another place."

    (God the Father - Dialogues; Treatise on Obedience)


    Colossians 2:18-19

    "Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh, And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God."


    Offline Emitte Lucem Tuam

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 08:08:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    That satan's primary focus is on those who still have the faith, which in one definition, is being subject to the validly elected pontiff.

    He doesn't want to disturb the sedevacantists as we see from your post, for he doesn't want to give you any impression that you are in grave error (and de facto enemies of God!):


    Dogmas of the Holy Roman Catholic Church


    "According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time".


    "He left you this sweet key of obedience; for as you know He left His vicar, the Christ, on earth, whom you are all obliged to obey until death, and whoever is outside His obedience is in a state of damnation, as I have already told you in another place."

    (God the Father - Dialogues; Treatise on Obedience)


    Colossians 2:18-19

    "Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh, And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God."

    Andysloan,
    Have you ever been to Holy Mass at a sedevacantist leaning chapel?  Have you ever listened to a priest's sermon while attending Mass in a sedevacantist leaning chapel?  I can almost guarantee you that you would have heard a sermon preached strictly on the Holy Virtues and Morals and Faith of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.  You would be hard pressed to find any sedevacantist leaning priest preach a sermon solely and strictly on the Throne of Saint Peter being vacant all the time and at every sermon.  There is no need to preach that…it's obvious to anyone of Faith in the Holy Catholic Church.  In my chapel, it is extremely rare to hear our priest preach or teach about the current catastrophe affecting Catholics in the Novus Ordo deception. Sure, it's mentioned occasionally but not all the time.   The Holy Virtues, Holy Scripture, the Holy Saints, Morals and Holy Dogma, i.e.:  The Catholic Faith -  is preached and taught at my chapel.  Is  the same Faith preached and taught at your church / chapel?

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 08:32:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emitte Lucem Tuam
    Quote from: andysloan
    That satan's primary focus is on those who still have the faith, which in one definition, is being subject to the validly elected pontiff.

    He doesn't want to disturb the sedevacantists as we see from your post, for he doesn't want to give you any impression that you are in grave error (and de facto enemies of God!):


    Dogmas of the Holy Roman Catholic Church


    "According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time".


    "He left you this sweet key of obedience; for as you know He left His vicar, the Christ, on earth, whom you are all obliged to obey until death, and whoever is outside His obedience is in a state of damnation, as I have already told you in another place."

    (God the Father - Dialogues; Treatise on Obedience)


    Colossians 2:18-19

    "Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh, And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God."

    Andysloan,
    Have you ever been to Holy Mass at a sedevacantist leaning chapel?  Have you ever listened to a priest's sermon while attending Mass in a sedevacantist leaning chapel?  I can almost guarantee you that you would have heard a sermon preached strictly on the Holy Virtues and Morals and Faith of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.  You would be hard pressed to find any sedevacantist leaning priest preach a sermon solely and strictly on the Throne of Saint Peter being vacant all the time and at every sermon.  There is no need to preach that…it's obvious to anyone of Faith in the Holy Catholic Church.  In my chapel, it is extremely rare to hear our priest preach or teach about the current catastrophe affecting Catholics in the Novus Ordo deception. Sure, it's mentioned occasionally but not all the time.   The Holy Virtues, Holy Scripture, the Holy Saints, Morals and Holy Dogma, i.e.:  The Catholic Faith -  is preached and taught at my chapel.  Is  the same Faith preached and taught at your church / chapel?


    You are so right about that, at my sede chapel almost the only time Vatican II is mentioned would be during the Fatima Conference in October of each year.  

    Might be on a rare occasion if something really big is in the air.

    I think God is allowing this to happen to SSPX, because time is very short now and God wants to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    Offline andysloan

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 08:32:54 PM »
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  • The externals can be pristine, but you do not address the fact that sedevacantism is voided by the dogma I quoted and Vatican 1. And private judgement of heresy and deposition of a Pope is proscribed by Our Lord (Matt 18:15-17)



    "St. Jerome - in saying that a heretic departs on his own from the Body of Christ - does not preclude the Church's judgment, especially in so grave a matter as is the deposition of a pope. He refers instead to the nature of that crime, which is such as to cut someone off from the Church on its own and without other censure in addition to it - yet only so long as it should be declared by the Church... So long as he has not become declared to us juridically as an infidel or heretic, be he ever so manifestly heretical according to private judgment, he remains as far as we are concerned a member of the Church and consequently its head. Judgment is required by the Church. It is only then that he ceases to be Pope as far as we are concerned"
    ( Spanish Theologian-John of St. Thomas 17th Century)



    "So that you may understand that the Church has received the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, hear what the Lord says ... to all His Apostles: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost," and then immediately following: "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:22-23). These words relate to the keys, of which it had been said: "Whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed in Heaven" (Matthew 16: 19) ...And outside the Church, nothing is loosed ... The charity of the Church which is poured forth in our hearts by the Holy Ghost forgives the sins of those who are partakers of it. Of those who are not partakers, it retains. The grace which comes through the faith of Jesus Christ belongs only to those to whom the faith belongs. He who does not believe remains unhealed."

    St. Augustine



    "Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church --- however much he believes that he is living praiseworthily --- will not have life, but the anger of God rests upon him. The reason is this offense alone: that he is sundered from the unity of Christ."

    St. Augustine




    "What does it profit you to praise the Lord, to honor Him, to preach Him, to believe on His Son and confess that He sits at the right hand of God the Father while, at the same time, you blaspheme His Church? ... No one can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Church you can find everything except salvation. You can have dignities, you can have Sacraments, you can sing "Alleluia," answer "Amen," have the Gospels, have faith in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and preach it, too. But never can you find salvation except in the Catholic Church."


    St. Augustine


    Offline andysloan

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 08:40:10 PM »
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  • "The devil is not busy in pursuing infidels and such men as live outside the bosom of Holy Church, because he considers them already won."
    St. Jerome

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #6 on: November 15, 2014, 07:29:05 AM »
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  • Don't be fooled:  Satan is working overtime through the anti-sedevacantists.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #7 on: November 15, 2014, 07:49:49 AM »
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  • The reason for the peace that is found in Sedevacantist chapels , and seems to be lacking in some SSPX chapels, is because the SSPX leadership is trying to bind themselves through one means of another with the novus ordo.  The Sedes are sticking to Catholicism as it existed in the True Faith since the time of Our Lord until Vatican II.  The sedevacantists are following Our Lord and are not respecters of men.  I think the SSPXers are doing likewise.

    Catholics, and Sedes are definitely Catholic because they adhere to the Catholic Faith.  All Catholics should pray for guidance and protection from temptation and sedes are not excluded from being tempted by many sins, all of them, but sedes cannot be accused of the indifferentism of the concilliarists.  

    We could all be like Andy and search for one or two quotes here and there separated by a couple centuries and unrelated in context to each other and use them as a debating point.  Andy is quoting lines from St Augustine - in St Augustine's day, where there actual council documents exclaiming salvific properties to religions that denied the Divinity of Our Lord as we have in the Vatican II council?  In the days of the great saints, were their letters from Popes talking of the respect the pope held for faiths that denied Our Lord?

    Quotes should line up with the context.  Sedes could easily use those quotes for their own argument.

    The best argument in favor of the sedes and against those who think obedience is superior to faith in God is what happened at the foot of the cross.  Neither Our Lady nor St John the Beloved Apostle nor the faithful women followed St Peter into the dark night of denial nor did they scatter with the other apostles.  They followed Our Lord.  And what did Our Lord say to them?  Did he scold them for their lack of obedience to St Peter which Andy thinks is the only real factor in being a Catholic?  No, He blessed the Church and the Faithful by extending the Motherhood of Our Lady to all of us.  

    As for there being peace in novus ordo churches - hardly.  Not unless boredom and disinterest counts as Christ's peace.  

    As for the SSPX chapels, there is a tranquil and beautiful peace during the Mass and during prayer and reflection.  The only time the SSPXers get agitated is when they worry that they are being handed over to the indifferentists.  



    Offline Memento

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 08:24:42 AM »
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  • Dear Andy,
    So your contention is that although the SSPX and associated groups say that Francis is the pope, [but follow none of his written teachings, allocutions, actions and suggestions and therefore effectively do not follow him or treat him as pope ] and for the most part ignore the canonizations, they are being bothered by the devil. You realize very few SSPX chapel members, priests or bishops accept the most recent canonizations.

    Is your argument that the devil is bothering them so they accept the canonization of John Paul II?

    Quote from: andysloan
    "The devil is not busy in pursuing infidels and such men as live outside the bosom of Holy Church, because he considers them already won."
    St. Jerome


    You do realize that it is not a certain fact that the SSPX is within the bosom of the Church in Rome. There are documents that say one may attend their Masses and others which say the opposite because they are not in "full communion".

    It seems to me, by your standards, that the Indult/Ecclesia Dei groups would be the only safe place from the devil, to be in union with Rome and have the Tridentine Mass. That is, if one can stand hearing heresies and unsound doctrine at times. Also one can watch the sanctuary become rearranged and transformed back to the Novus Ordo happy meal time table at the end of Mass. Sacrilege is then a distinct possibility at the following Novus Ordo Mass when the hosts that were consecrated for the Indult Mass are given out by hand and particles of Him fall to the floor and are trampled.

    Where is the safe place Andy?
















    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 08:40:04 AM »
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  • That St Jerome quote is from the Fifth century and was not in response to the situation the Church finds itself today.  

    Was St Jerome a respecter of religions that denied Our Lord?

    Offline Memento

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    « Reply #10 on: November 15, 2014, 10:15:45 AM »
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  • The peace found in the chapels of SSPX and sedevacantist chapels seems to me reliant on the precept that we are holding fast to traditions.

    Many of you might have struggled with the decision to leave the diocesan structure and to make the decision to worship God elsewhere. The document below, written by Bishop George Hay is one of the main reasons for my own decision.

    (please note clearly Canon 63 and the other bolded text towards the bottom)

    Quote
    GENERAL LAWS OF GOD, FORBIDDING ALL COMMUNICATION
    IN RELIGION WITH THOSE OF A FALSE RELIGION

    By Bishop George Hay (1729-1811)

    Q. What are those laws which prohibit this in general?

    A. They are principally these following:

    (1) The first is grounded upon the light in which all false religions are considered in the Holy Scripture; for there we are assured that they arise from false teachers, who are called seducers of the people, ravenous wolves, false prophets, who speak perverse things: that they are anti-Christs, and enemies of the cross of Christ; that, departing from the true faith of Christ, they give heed to the spirits of error; that their doctrines are the doctrines of devils, speaking lies; that their ways are pernicious, their heresies damnable, and the like. In consequence of which, this general command of avoiding all communication with them in religion is given by the apostle: "Bear not the yoke together with unbelievers; for what participation hath justice with injustice? or what fellowship hath light with darkness? and what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbelievers? or what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God." (2 Cor. 6:14)

    Now it is the true religion of Jesus Christ, the true doctrine of His gospel, which is justice and light; all false doctrines are injustice and darkness; it is by our holy faith that we belong to Christ, and are temples of the living God; all false religions flow from the father of lies, and make those who embrace them unbelievers; therefore all participation, all fellowship, all communication with false religions, is here expressly forbidden by the Word of God. We have seen above 2 that we are obliged to love the persons of those who are engaged in false religions, to wish them well, and to do them good; but here we are expressly forbidden all communication in their religion — that is, in their false tenets, and worship. Hence the learned and pious English divines who published at Rheims their translation of the New Testament, in their note upon this passage, say: "Generally, here is forbidden conversation and dealing with unbelievers in prayers, or meetings at their schismatical service, or other divine office whatsoever; which the apostle here uttereth in more particular terms, that Christian people may take the better heed of it."

    (2) The next general command to avoid all religious communication with those who are heretics, or have a false religion, is this, — "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, AVOID; knowing that he that is such a one is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment." (Tit. 3:10)

    Here we see another general command to avoid all such — that is, to flee from them, to have no communication with them. But in what are we commanded to flee from them? Not as to their persons, or the necessary communications of society; for then, as the same holy apostle says upon a similar occasion, "You must needs go out of the world." [1] Cor. 5:10) Not as to the offices of Christian charity; for these we are commanded by Christ himself, in the person of the good Samaritan, to give to all mankind, whatever their religion be: therefore, in the most restricted and limited sense which the words can bear, the thing in which we are commanded to avoid them is in all matters of religion; in that in which they themselves are subverted and sin; in things relating to God and His service. In these they err, in these they are subverted, in these they are condemned; therefore in these we must avoid them.

    Hence the pious translators of the Rheims New Testament, in their note on this text, say, "Heretics, therefore, must not wonder if we warn all Catholics, by the words of the apostle in this place, to take heed of them, and to shun their preachings, books, and conventicles."

    (3) A third general command on this subject is manifestly included in this zealous injunction of the apostle: "We charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received from us." (2 Thes. 3:6)

    In this passage, all the different sects of false religions are particularly pointed out; for, however they may differ in other respects they generally agree in this, of rejecting apostolical traditions handed down to us by the Church of Christ; all such the apostle here charges us, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to avoid — to withdraw ourselves from them. Now it is evident that the most limited sense in which this command, so warmly laid on us by the apostle, can be taken, is to withdraw ourselves from them in everything relating to religion, — from their sacraments, prayers, preachings, religious meetings, and the like. It is in these things that they "do not walk according to the tradition received from the apostles". In these things, then, we are here commanded, in the name of Christ Himself, "to withdraw ourselves from them".

    Seeing, therefore, that the Holy Ghost, by the mouth of this holy apostle, has so often, and in such strong terms, forbidden all manner of fellowship in religion with those who are out of His holy Church, let us not be deceived by the specious but vain sophistry of cunning men, who lie in wait to deceive; let us not offend our God, by transgressing these His express commands, by joining in the prayers or going to the meetings of such as are separated from His holy Church, lest He should withdraw His holy grace from US, and as we expose ourselves to the danger, leave us to perish in it.

    Let us hear and follow the advice and command of the same holy apostle: "As therefore ye have received Jesus Christ the Lord, walk ye in Him; rooted and built up in Him, and confirmed in the faith; as also ye have learned, abounding in Him in thanksgiving. Beware lest any man impose upon you by philosophy and vain deceit according to the tradition of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ." (Col. 2:6) Wherefore, to all those arguments which may be brought from human, worldly, or interested motives, to induce us to join in or to partake of any religious duty with those of a false religion, though in appearance only, we ought to oppose this one, — "God has expressly forbidden it, therefore no human power can make it lawful."

    PARTICULAR LAWS OF GOD FORBIDDING ALL COMMUNICATION  
    WITH FALSE RELIGIONS, AND ASSIGNING REASONS FOR IT

    Q. What are the particular laws on this subject?

    A. In the three general commands above mentioned, God Almighty speaks, by the mouth of His holy apostle, as Lord and Master, and lays His orders upon us absolutely. In what follows, He unites the merciful Savior to the Sovereign; and whilst He no less strictly commands us to avoid all religious communication with those who are separated from His holy Faith and Church, He at the same time condescends to engage our obedience, by showing us the strongest reasons for it.

    (1) "Beware of false prophets", says our blessed Master, "who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves". (Mat. 7:5) Here Jesus Christ commands His followers to "beware of false prophets" — that is, to flee from them, to be on their guard against them; and He adds this powerful motive, "Lest ye be seduced and ruined by them"; for, whatever appearance of godliness they may put on, though they come to you in the clothing of sheep, yet within they are ravenous wolves, and seek only to slay and to destroy.

    To the same purpose He says in another place, "Take heed that no man seduce you; for many will come in My name, saying, I am Christ, and they will seduce many." (Mat. 24:4) "And many false prophets shall arise and seduce many." (ver. 2) Here He foretells the cunning of false teachers, and the danger of being seduced by them, and commands us to take care of ourselves, that such be not our fate.

    But how shall we escape from them? He afterwards tells us how: do not believe them, have nothing to do with them, have no communication, with them. "Then", He says, "if any man shall say, to you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive even the elect. Behold. I have told it you beforehand. If therefore, they shall say to you, Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out; behold he is in the closet, believe it not." (Mat. 24:23)

    Can there be a more powerful reason to enforce the observance of His command, or a stronger motive to induce His followers to have no religious communication with such false teachers? Many will be certainly seduced by them; and so will you, if you expose yourself to the danger.

    (2) St. Peter, considering the great mercy bestowed upon us by the grace of our vocation to the true faith of Christ, says, that it is our duty to "declare the praises and virtues of Him who hath called us out of darkness into His admirable light". (1 Pet. 2:9) St. Paul also exhorts us to "give thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His beloved Son." (Col. 1:12) Where it is manifest that as the true Faith of Jesus Christ is the only light that conducts to salvation, and that it is only in His Kingdom — that is, in His Church — where that heavenly light is to be found, so all false religions are darkness; and that to be separated from the Kingdom of Christ is to be in darkness as to the great affair of eternity. And indeed what greater or more miserable darkness can a soul be in than to be led away by seducing spirits, and "departing from the faith of Christ, give heed to the doctrine of devils". (1 Tim. 4:1) St. Paul, deploring the state of such souls, says that they "have their understandings darkened, being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance: that is in them, because of the blindness of their hearts". (Eph. 4:18)

    On this account the same holy apostle exhorts us in the most pressing manner to take care not to be seduced from the light of our holy Faith by the vain words and seducing speeches of false teachers, by which we would certainly incur the anger of God; and, to prevent so great a misery, He not only exhorts us to walk as children of the light in the practice of all holy virtues, but expressly commands us to avoid all communication in religion with those who walk in the darkness of error. "Let no man deceive you with vain words, for because of these things cometh the anger of God upon the children of unbelief; be ye not, therefore, partakers with them. For ye were theretofore darkness; but now light in the Lord; walk ye as the children of the light,

    . . . and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness". (Eph. 5:6)

    Here, then, we have an express command, not only not to partake with the unfruitful works of darkness — that is, not to join in any false religion, or partake of its rites or sacraments — but also, not to have any fellowship with its professors, not to be present at their meetings or sermons, or any other of their religious offices, lest we be deceived by them, and incur the anger of the Almighty, provoke Him to withdraw His assistance from us, and leave us to ourselves, in punishment of our disobedience.

    (3) St. Paul, full of zeal for the good of souls, and solicitous to preserve us from all danger of losing our holy Faith, the groundwork of our salvation, renews the same command in his Epistle to the Romans, by way of entreaty, beseeching us to avoid all such communication with those of a false religion. He also shows us by what sign we should discover them, and points out the source of our danger from them: "Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who cause dissensions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and to avoid them; for they that are such serve not Our Lord Christ, but their own belly, and by pleasing speeches and good words seduce the hearts of the innocent". (Rom. 16:17)

    See here whom we are to avoid — "those that cause dissensions contrary to the ancient doctrine"; all those who, hating, left the true Faith and doctrine which they had learned, and which has been handed down to us from the beginning by the Church of Christ, follow strange doctrines, and make divisions and dissensions in the Christian world. And why are we to avoid them? Because they are not servants of Christ, but slaves to their own belly, whose hearts are placed upon the enjoyments of this world, and who, by "pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent" — that is, do not bring good reasons or solid arguments to seduce people to their evil ways, so as to convince the understanding, for that is impossible; but practice upon their hearts and passions, relaxing the laws of the gospel, granting liberties to the inclinations of flesh and blood, laying aside the sacred rules of mortification of the passions and of self-denial, promising worldly wealth, and ease, and honors, and, by pleasing speeches of this kind, seducing the heart, and engaging people to their ways.

    (4) The same argument and command the apostle repeats in his epistle to his beloved disciple Timothy, where he gives a sad picture, indeed, of all false teachers, telling us that they put on an outward show of piety the better to deceive, "having an appearance, indeed, of godliness, but denying the power thereof;" then he immediately gives this command: "Now these avoid: for of this sort are they that creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, who are led away with divers desires"; and adds this sign by which they may be known, that, not having the true Faith of Christ, and being out of His holy Church — the only sure rule for knowing the truth — they are never settled, but are always altering and changing their opinions, "ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth"; because, as he adds, "they resist the truth, being corrupted in their mind, and reprobate concerning the Faith". (2 Tim. 3:5)

    Here it is to be observed that, though the apostle says that silly weak people, and especially women, are most apt to be deceived by such false teachers, yet he gives the command of avoiding all communication with them in their evil ways, to all without exception, even to Timothy himself; for the epistle is directed particularly to him, and to him he says, as well as to all others, "Now these avoid", though he was a pastor of the church, and fully instructed by the apostle himself in all the truths of religion; because, besides the danger of seduction, which none can escape who voluntarily expose themselves to it, all such communication is evil in itself, and therefore to be avoided by all, and especially by pastors, whose example would be more prejudicial to others.

    (5) Lastly, the beloved disciple St. John renews the same command in the strongest terms, and adds another reason, which regards all without exception, and especially those who are best instructed in their duty: "Look to yourselves", says he, "that ye lose not the things that ye have wrought, but that you may receive a full reward. Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine the same hath both the Father and the Son. If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, nor say to him, God speed you: for he that saith to him, God speed you, communicateth with his wicked works". (2 John, ver. 8)

    Here, then, it is manifest, that all fellowship with those who have not the doctrine of Jesus Christ, which is "a communication in their evil works" — that is, in their false tenets, or worship, or in any act of religion — is strictly forbidden, under pain of losing the "things we have wrought, the reward of our labors, the salvation of our souls". And if this holy apostle declares that the very saying God speed to such people is a communication with their wicked works, what would he have said of going to their places of worship, of hearing their sermons, joining in their prayers, or the like?

    From this passage the learned translators of the Rheims New Testament, in their note, justly observe, "That, in matters of religion, in praying, hearing their sermons, presence at their service, partaking of their sacraments, and all other communicating with them in spiritual things, it is a great and damnable sin to deal with them." And if this be the case with all in general, how much more with those who are well instructed and better versed in their religion than others? For their doing any of these things must be a much greater crime than in ignorant people, because they know their duty better.

    Q. These laws are very clear and strong; but has the Christian church always observed and enforced the observance of them?

    A. The spirit of Christ, which dictated the Holy Scriptures, and the spirit which animates and guides the Church of Christ, and teaches her all truth, is the same; and therefore in all ages her conduct on this point has been uniformly the same as what the Holy Scripture teaches. She has constantly forbidden her children to hold any communication, in religious matters, with those who are separated from her communion; and this she has sometimes done under the most severe penalties. In the apostolical canons, which are of very ancient standing, and for the most part handed down from the apostolical age, it is thus decreed: "If any bishop, or priest, or deacon, shall join in prayers with heretics, let him be suspended from Communion". (Can. 44)

    Also, "If any clergyman or laic shall go into the synagogue of the Jews, or the meetings of heretics, to join in prayer with them, let him be deposed, and deprived of communion". (Can. 63)

    So also, in one of her most respected councils, held in the year 398, at which the great St. Augustine was present, she speaks thus: "None must either pray or sing psalms with heretics; and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the Communion of the Church, whether clergyman or laic, let him be excommunicated". (Coun. Carth. iv. 72 and 73)

    The same is her language in all ages; and in this she shows herself to be the true mother, who will not suffer her children to be divided. She knows her heavenly spouse has declared that "no man can serve two masters; we cannot serve God and Mammon;" and therefore she must either have them to be hers entirely, or she cannot acknowledge them as such. She knows His holy apostle has protested that there can be no "participation, no fellowship, no concord, no pact, no agreement between the faithful and the unbeliever;" and therefore she never can allow any of her faithful children to have any religious communication with those of a false religion and corrupted Faith.

     Footnotes:

    1. The Sincere Christian pp. 474 -533, James Duffey and Son, Dublin

    2. Ibid.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info




    Offline andysloan

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #11 on: November 15, 2014, 02:43:35 PM »
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  • Capt McQuigg said:

    "Catholics, and Sedes are definitely Catholic because they adhere to the Catholic Faith."

    In reference to modernism, does that sound familiar?  That is syncretism.


    Sedevacantists are just a modern brand of schismatics:

    Luke 22:31

    "And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:"



    In three places does V1 assert that there is permanent succession. Also, it is a dogma of the Church:

    "According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time."



    And you can see the inherent dishonesty of sedevacantists, because they so obviously avoid as far as they can, dealing with this doctrine, because they will have a hard time twisting the terms "all time","permanent" and "forever" from their simple clear meaning.

    In addition, I have never seen one straight answer from a sedevacantist in response to Our Lord's prohibition of their private judgement:

    Matt 18:15-17


    "But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

    And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."



    The requirement of the faith is to hold to the Chair of Peter and the keys and ex-cathedra promulgations. If a pontiff's private utterances are in error, they have no bind.


    But sedevacantists are just a new set of pharisess as we see from their behavior, for commonly they are obsessive in searching out and broadcasting error (or so they judge, for especially, they do not know intention!):


    Mark 12:13


    "And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and of the Herodians; that they should catch him in his words."


    Thus, is the verdict:


    Colossians 2:18-19

    "Let no man seduce you, willing in humility, and religion of angels, walking in the things which he hath not seen, in vain puffed up by the sense of his flesh,  And not holding the head, from which the whole body, by joints and bands, being supplied with nourishment and compacted, groweth unto the increase of God."


    Titus 1:9-11

    "Embracing that faithful word which is according to doctrine, that he may be able to exhort in sound doctrine, and to convince the gainsayers. For there are also many disobedient, vain talkers, and seducers: especially they who are of the circumcision:
    Who must be reproved, who subvert whole houses"


    "Even if that vicar were a devil incarnate, I must not defy him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom... He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope."
    (St Catherine to Letter to Bernabo Visconti)


    "There are many who pretend they are friends of mine and protest that they love me, but in their hearts they hate me. How many so-called Christians imagine they are members of our Saviour when in reality they are his treacherous persecutors, for while they make the sign of the cross with their hand, in their hearts they are its enemies!"
    St Father Montfort - Letter to friends of the Cross






       




    Offline Cantarella

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #12 on: November 15, 2014, 02:52:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg

    "Catholics, and Sedes are definitely Catholic because they adhere to the Catholic Faith."


    Not only adhering to the Catholic Faith is sufficient. Dogmatically, besides Explicit Faith (cannot be a heretic), there must be a reception of the Sacraments and a submission to the Roman Pontiff (cannot be a schismatic), in order to be a member of the Church.  

    Sedes, like protestants, have multiplied into innumerable private sects and home alone phenomenons that have not even agreement among each other.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline andysloan

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #13 on: November 15, 2014, 03:10:49 PM »
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  • As to SSPX rejection of canonisations, this is forbidden!

    "Divine providence preserves the Church lest in such matters it should err through the fallible testimony of men" St Thomas


    The situation with SSPX can be seen as attached.

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=31345&min=350


    And CaptMcQuigg, the statement of St Jerome is a statement of general satanic operation at all times.

    The sedevacantists organisations are in satan's pocket, but within the NO and Tradition, there are still people who hold the fullness of faith - even as Bishop Williamson recently stated publicly:

    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=34478&min=35&num=5

    Hence, the devil's fiercest attacks are directed against the latter.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Is the SSPX and the Resistance Imploding?
    « Reply #14 on: November 15, 2014, 05:14:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg

    "Catholics, and Sedes are definitely Catholic because they adhere to the Catholic Faith."


    Not only adhering to the Catholic Faith is sufficient. Dogmatically, besides Explicit Faith (cannot be a heretic), there must be a reception of the Sacraments and a submission to the Roman Pontiff (cannot be a schismatic), in order to be a member of the Church.  

    Sedes, like protestants, have multiplied into innumerable private sects and home alone phenomenons that have not even agreement among each other.



    I would take that to mean to be loyal to ALL popes, not contradict the past popes, as your "pope's" approach has been, including the past conciliar pretenders.  If you think being submissive to these conciLIAR "popes" makes one a Catholic you better go take a look at whoever you are following, because believe me it comes down to this:  Submissive to Francis is opposite of following Christ.  

    Remember your argument is sedevacantism is wrong because we are not submissive to the Roman Pontiff, and I beg to differ with you.  We are 100% loyal to True Rome.  Sedevantist does not mean we reject the Papacy, as you well know.  It means TODAY, we defend the Papacy till the Chair can again be filled with a POPE.  


     

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