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Author Topic: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?  (Read 890 times)

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Offline graceseeker

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Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
« on: January 26, 2018, 02:14:04 PM »
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    • I read some discussions here about that and I agree with the person called Drew who was discussing this topic with some other person I can't recall the name of

    In any case, I have made up my mind but was wondering what others think... If a pope is a heretic... and yet some say that is not possible, so that's what I am getting at here... Can a pope be a formal heretic?

    Honorius was...

    And yet... there is Mt 1618 about how the Church cannot fail against the gates of Hell itself..

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    Offline graceseeker

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #1 on: January 27, 2018, 01:33:58 PM »
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    • its my understanding that the pope himself is not infallible, only infallible when officially defining doctrine
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #2 on: January 27, 2018, 02:15:05 PM »
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    • The office doesn't do anything, so it can't be the office itself that is infallible.  The pope is infallible only in matters of faith and morals when he is acting in his office in teaching or ruling the Church.  The pope could be an occult heretic because occult heresy does not sever a person from the Church.  The pope cannot be a manifest heretic because manifest heresy severs the heretic from the Church and once severed, he is no longer a member of the Church nor her head.
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    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #3 on: January 27, 2018, 02:34:34 PM »
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    • Honorius was not a heretic.. :sleep:
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    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 04:09:18 PM »
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    • Well, the "office" doesn't exist in the abstract and the "office" does not teach.

    But the PERSON of the pope outside of the office isn't infallible either.

    So it's the person of the pope when exercising his office (according to the notes of inallibility) ... this COMBINATION of the two ... that is infallible.

    Person of the Pope NOT EXERCISING the office:  not infallible
    Office of the Pope when not being exercised by a person:  N/A
    Person of the Pope + Exercise of the Office (under certain conditions):  infallible.

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    Offline graceseeker

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #5 on: January 29, 2018, 01:18:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on January 27, 2018, 02:15:05 PM
    The office doesn't do anything, so it can't be the office itself that is infallible.  The pope is infallible only in matters of faith and morals when he is acting in his office in teaching or ruling the Church.  The pope could be an occult heretic because occult heresy does not sever a person from the Church.  The pope cannot be a manifest heretic because manifest heresy severs the heretic from the Church and once severed, he is no longer a member of the Church nor her head.
    so... seda vacantism?
    I say the person supposedly called pope right now is a heretic. But what exactly is meant by "manifest heretic"? I mean, it has been "manifested" to yours truly that he is a heretic. But I don't know if that is what u mean...
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    Offline graceseeker

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #6 on: January 29, 2018, 01:19:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: roscoe on January 27, 2018, 02:34:34 PM
    Honorius was not a heretic.. :sleep:
    who says?
    this post tells us nothing at all. Such posts that do not inform just waste our time. Give the proof that he was not... or why bother posting?
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    Offline graceseeker

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #7 on: January 29, 2018, 01:21:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 27, 2018, 04:09:18 PM
    Well, the "office" doesn't exist in the abstract and the "office" does not teach.

    But the PERSON of the pope outside of the office isn't infallible either.

    So it's the person of the pope when exercising his office (according to the notes of inallibility) ... this COMBINATION of the two ... that is infallible.

    Person of the Pope NOT EXERCISING the office:  not infallible
    Office of the Pope when not being exercised by a person:  N/A
    Person of the Pope + Exercise of the Office (under certain conditions):  infallible.
    well, just as God was in the Ark of the Covenant, at least @ certain times.. (?) Jesus is always present in His Church, which is what I meant by "the office"
    When the pope is busy in his infallible capacity of defining doctrines to be held by all in the Church, the Real Presence of Christ is what makes him infallible... in my opinion. I do not claim to know everything like God does
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #8 on: January 29, 2018, 02:18:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: graceseeker on January 29, 2018, 01:18:10 PM
    so... seda vacantism?
    I say the person supposedly called pope right now is a heretic. But what exactly is meant by "manifest heretic"? I mean, it has been "manifested" to yours truly that he is a heretic. But I don't know if that is what u mean...
    The word "manifest" means something that is obvious and easy to understand.  The fact that you (and the rest of the world) can plainly see that he is a heretic makes his heresy manifest.  In other words, he is a manifest heretic.  That is the only criteria that is necessary to know someone is not a Catholic.  The "formal" and "material" issues, while real things in themselves, are not what is necessary.  

    Material heresy is simply any belief that is not in conformity with Catholic doctrine.  Formal heresy is when one holds such a belief knowing it is contrary to Catholic doctrine--even if his excuse is that everyone in the past was simply wrong about what Catholic doctrine should be.  But someone can be a formal heretic (i.e., really and truly deny a doctrine, for example, reject the physical resurrection of Jesus) and still remain in the visible Church if he keeps the heretical belief secret.  The moment he makes his belief manifest, or known to others in a way that many people know or can know about the heresy, he expels himself from the Church.  This is automatic and does not require any writ or action by anyone.
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    Offline graceseeker

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    Re: Is the pope infallible, or the office of the pope?
    « Reply #9 on: January 30, 2018, 12:16:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on January 29, 2018, 02:18:06 PM
    The word "manifest" means something that is obvious and easy to understand.  The fact that you (and the rest of the world) can plainly see that he is a heretic makes his heresy manifest.  In other words, he is a manifest heretic.  That is the only criteria that is necessary to know someone is not a Catholic.  The "formal" and "material" issues, while real things in themselves, are not what is necessary.  

    Material heresy is simply any belief that is not in conformity with Catholic doctrine.  Formal heresy is when one holds such a belief knowing it is contrary to Catholic doctrine--even if his excuse is that everyone in the past was simply wrong about what Catholic doctrine should be.  But someone can be a formal heretic (i.e., really and truly deny a doctrine, for example, reject the physical resurrection of Jesus) and still remain in the visible Church if he keeps the heretical belief secret.  The moment he makes his belief manifest, or known to others in a way that many people know or can know about the heresy, he expels himself from the Church.  This is automatic and does not require any writ or action by anyone.
    well, I knew that, but thank for clarifying for those who may not u/stand or whatever. 
    so here's the deal
    Why can't we get rid of him?
    secret societies control the Vatican? and they are satanic thugs so everyone fears them?
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